Anyone use SIP panels?

[Gem]

Hi everyone,

My fiancee and me are going to build the Solar Saltbox design from this site. I'm very happy to have found the plans, it's almost exactly what we were looking for. We met with an engineer who is going to work up with plans again and make a few modification (this seems to be much cheaper than going with an architect.) Anyway, he is recommending SIP panels for several reasons. We have studied them a bit and they seem to be a good green, and cheap options, but I thought I would ask if anyone else has had issues with them.

[duncanshannon]

I am not yet at that phase of the dream... so no experience with them.

that said, i have thought about them quite a bit.

I was interested in them first because they would speed building process considerably (compared me me individually or with a helper stick framing) and secondly due to their insulation value etc.

I have [mostly] moved on from the idea of using SIPs for a couple of reasons

- I kind of want to stick frame the house, i think that will be fun and very rewarding.
- The extra cost scared me off.  In trying to keep the total cost low, the SIP's and the essentially required labor to have them installed was non-trivial. 
-  This is more of a minor thing but I'm a little concerned about working within the walls and possible loss of flexability of the plans.  Ie, if I decide later in life I want to add an outlet or a sink somewhere... how would I retrofit the (foam filled) walls to accomodate that.

My impression of them is they are a very viable and reasonable alternative building technique.  No need to mess with vapor barrier, makes a tight seal, etc. etc.  I have not heard of people having problems with them. 

If they seem to be a good candidate/fit for you I'd think you'd be very happy with them.

Duncan

[duncanshannon]

   to the forum by the way!  Lots of great stuff here.

[MushCreek]

I'm actively considering SIP's for my main floor, and am waiting on a quote. I'm only considering metal SIP's, as they are more rot/bug/fire resistant than OSB. They are also a good deal lighter, and there's no spine joining them together- they just interlock. If you get them pre-cut, it shouldn't be very hard for a DIY with some guidance. I will certainly install my own. The other options I'm considering are ICF, and conventional stick. Stick is obviously considerably cheaper. Metal SIP's also make a heck of a roof structure; I've seen a picture of a car suspended on a metal SIP.

As for wiring and plumbing- It is best to use furring on the inside walls, which creates space for wiring. SIP's can tend to transfer noise from outside, and the air gap helps alleviate that. There are ways to create channels in the SIP's, but its almost impossible after the fact. One interesting technique is to heat a steel ball bearing red hot, and simply drop it from the top of the wall. Make sure the panel is plumb, though! You can also have some channels put in at the time of manufacture with some SIP's

To get professional advice on the various alternative building systems, check out greenbuildingtalk.com. They have a good forum there with a lot of discussion on this topic.

[Alan Gage]

I got a quote last year when planning my house. I thought they were pretty expensive. Not very "green" either (foam is bad). Also tough to add on/remodel.

Alan

[Danfish]

The quote for SIP construction on my project was "significantly" higher than for stick frame.  End result with stick frame proved correct!  Final stick frame material cost was half estimated cost of the structural panels alone.

I spent considerable time evaluating construction with SIP's, even took the introduction to SIP's builders class (many local manufactures and SIP's suppliers offer such courses...highly recommended).  No question SIP's offer faster route to dry in.  I witness a 3,000 sq. ft home brought to that stage in one week (using a 4-man professional crew and crane).  The insulation and air-seal properties of this construction method are also hard to beat.  The instalation of utilities is really no big deal if you know the tricks; however, most trade plumbers and electricians hate this work and usually end up butchering the panels to accomplish their goals.  Working as a DIYer is quite feasible (with help). 

The site plays an important role in the decision process.  Due to size of panels, site must be accessible to large tractor trailer rig.  You could breakdown to individual panels at a staging area and bring in with a rough-terain forklift.  You also must get a crane to site to lift panels into place.

Finally, it is sometimes difficult to find someone with experience to ask questions...most local contractors have never worked with this method of construction.  Also, some local building officals are not familar with SIP construction.

I have heard feedback on concerns with moisture getting into the SIP's panels, but have no real evidence of same.  I did have them tell me at the SIP's class that stick frame roof structure was recommended over SIP's due to cost difference.  Floor SIP panels were not recommended due to noise from drum effect.

[MushCreek]

It's hard to truly know green or not green a building method is. Foam is bad; I can't argue with that. But wood has to be planted, maintained, harvested, milled, and trucked, often great distances. To get stick to compete with methods such as ICF or SIP, you either have to build a double wall, or use foam on the outside to create a thermal break. Without a thermal break, a so-called R-19 wall actually nets about R-13. Building a double wall, or more so, paying someone to build one runs the cost up considerably. Also, stick construction is inherently leaky, which means lots of labor and materials (including foam) to correct. Many areas are now requiring blower door testing on residences, so you can't skate by doing it the 'old way' anymore. The bottom line is that a poorly insulated house continues to be a burden on the environment for it's usable life. If anyone can figure out how to compare using more oil to heat versus more oil to manufacture over the life of a house, I'd be impressed. For a part-time cabin, any method works, but I'm building what will hopefully be my final home. I'm also building in an area of rampant rot and termites.

For me, I'm going to go with the method that works best for a DIY'er, often working alone. ICF will probably win out if I can afford it. Even an old man can stack the light weight blocks! If money were no object, I'd go ICF up to the eaves, and then metal SIP's and framing for the roof.

[MountainDon]

Yep. IMO, anything that reduces future energy use is Green.

[Don_P]

If there is more energy embedded in a product than it will save during the course of its' life it is hard for me to see it as green.
the best solar collector... a leaf. Wood has mass and R value. One can sit in a number of chairs and argue this one.

I've used sips over a timberframe that covered walls and roof. They were fair. Not as flat as I expected, there were voids inside when I had to modify openings that they muffed. Electrical was run to platic boxes thru smurf tubes, generally easy snaking. If you lose the skin it is no longer a sip, there is no framing to attach to. I guess I'm old fashioned.

[Alan Gage]

Another thing to keep in mind with foam is that it never goes away. Even if the house lasts for 100 years the foam will be around in the landfill a lot longer than that.

Alan

[MountainDon]

No it'll be in the house, if the house lasts.   

[Alan Gage]

No it'll be in the house, if the house lasts.   

Most don't 

[Bill Houghton]

Hi everyone,

My fiancee and me are going to build the Solar Saltbox design from this site. I'm very happy to have found the plans, it's almost exactly what we were looking for. We met with an engineer who is going to work up with plans again and make a few modification (this seems to be much cheaper than going with an architect.) Anyway, he is recommending SIP panels for several reasons. We have studied them a bit and they seem to be a good green, and cheap options, but I thought I would ask if anyone else has had issues with them.

We considered SIP's but eventually decided on stick framing and Icynene insulation.  I read about SIP's working like an "I" beam with one of the OSB "skins" in tension and the other in compression.  Somewere on the net I read extinsively about roof SIP failures, I think it was in Alaska, after roof leaks developed.  When the OSB gets wet and loses its structural integrity, there is now nothing "structrual" to hold up the house.  If a stick frame develops a leak and the OSB rots, you still have the structual framing intact and holding up your house.   We have been very happy with the performance of our house with the Icynene.  Very low utility bills and very quiet.

[Squirl]

Yeah, that had to do with her question.  hmm (Previous post deleted - it did not belong in this discussion - J. Raabe)

Since you are using an engineer I assume the SIP panels will have no problem passing any building code, which they can have certain issues in areas.

They are more expensive than a stick frame house with fiberglass insulation for just materials.  When you factor in labor costs and time, they are very competitive.  Because there are less studs and it is one solid piece of foam insulation, they usually perform in a superior energy fashion. 

Anything that keeps more green in my pocket instead of to energy companies and gives me long term financial security can qualify as green in my book. 

Many people here are owner builders and their labor cost factors in at $0 or they live close to their construction.  I am half a year into building.  I have a long distance to drive to my project ($150 gasoline weekend).  Labor savings are starting to add up to real money in my pocket.

[AC]

I just discovered this site a few days ago...have been reading, learning, asking and discovering what other forums are calling 'small homes', 'pretty good homes', 'high performance homes', etc. I have drawn-up and priced priced a couple of homes with sq footage in the mid-teens and not very extravagant interiors and exteriors and got a good douse of sticker shock.

This started me on the path of 'what do I want' vs 'what do I need'? I looked a the basic layout of the 20 x 30 x 1 1/2 and expanded it to 24 x 36 x 1 1/2 with a full basement. I have compromised a bit on living/dining room area to fit the basement/loft staircase into the scheme of things. (I will post sketch after I get it cleaned-up a bit more).

While designing the larger sq ft houses I worked with a local SIP manufacturer to get pricing for them. I was using 6 1/2" walls which were R-29 and 10 1/4 roof panels which were R-47. (Mfg uses Neopore rather than white EPS for the increased R values). What I found before was that to insulate a 'stick house' to these levels the spray foam and / or exterior rigid insulation would bring the costs to about the same as the SIPS.

Are SIPS overkill for a small home? I am not qualified to answer that. (I am a piping designer that uses Autocad and haven't learned to use the more descriptive drawing programs that produced the nice illustrations on this forum). I am going to proceed with my design and get the materials priced in the next few weeks. I will share info if anyone is interested. Thank you all for your contributions on this site!

[MushCreek]

Are SIP's overkill? That depends a lot upon your local climate. In a very cold climate, you need lots of insulation. In a mild climate, its not as critical. I'm building in SC, and could get away with the code minimums. Part of the reason I'm looking at SIP's (and ICF) is speed of building. I left my job to do my build, and the sooner I get done, the sooner I can go back to earning a paycheck. So there is a savings if I can get dried in faster.