Tiny Saltbox

[Khalif Williams]

Hello,

I've been very influence by the photo's of John's solar saltbox design and I'm going to build a miniature  16x20 version of sorts this spring.  I've never framed a house before, much less a saltbox roof, and I can't seem to find any information on how to do it.  

To make things more complex, due to my height (6'5"), I've designed the roof to have two different pitches.  The long side has a run of 15 ft and an 8pitch  and the short side runs only 5 ft at a 5 pitch.

I'm hoping to get some good advise on how to make sure that roof loads won't push my walls out.  Must I use a load bearing ridge since there is no head room in the loft to put collar ties low enough to work correctly?

I hope you, John, might have some wise words.  I've learned a lot already from your advise to others.  (by the way, your window wall plans are great!!!  Very easy to use, even for a newbie like me.  Thanks!)


Thanks,

K. Williams

[glenn kangiser]

If you're not using one of John's standard plans and modifying it I would recommend studying the standard framing details here

http://www.awc.org/pdf/WCD1-300.pdf


 or having an architect design a safe method of framing.  At any rate the above information is a great reference for any time -I printed it out for ease of use.

[John Raabe]

My solar saltbox design uses an internal load bearing wall that carries 2x12 rafters over the cathedral section of the house, and then site built flat attic trusses over the higher gabled section of the upper floor.

See the cross section diagram in the PDF link here: http://countryplans.com/whid_hs.htm.

If you wanted higher ceilings in the upper (or lower floor) you could either raise the back wall or steepen the pitch of the roof.

You will need to do a different cross section design for the 16' width, of course, but the plans would give you many details and point you in the right direction for the design modifications.

The saltbox design is more complex than a standard simple gable, but is often worth the extra work as its layout of upper vs lower floor area often works better for the way most people live (common space below and private space above).

[Amanda_931]

Might be a good idea to make a model to see if you really liked that two-pitch roof.

Might work visually the same way that a shed dormer works.

[markbrown]

you need books by alex wade like

 
1.
  
30 Energy-Efficient Houses...You Can Build  


A Design and Construction Handbook for Energy-Saving Houses

there is one other, he has salt box designs and construction instructions for salt boxex as small as 16 x 16
there is one other book, trying to think, he has a few chapters in it

these books are great, my copies are well worn and are available very cheap on the net used google to find

I have seen these books refered to here before and John spoke well of them.  the very first one is Low  cost something

More later

[Amanda_931]

I remember that Alex Wade book--read it over and over.  I may have to get another copy.

But you do need to remember how old it really is.

He was in love with urea-formaldehyde (was that it?) sprayed in insulation.  That a few years later was banned, with, I think removal efforts in place.

Icynene is the modern equivalent.  

My first fabric wall hanging was of his own house, listed in the book, with a crocheted sun and pigs--given to a friend who was living in a cramped apartment (THAT house would't have helped at all--as small as my trailer!) with her family.  And she collected pigs.

[Khalif Williams]

THanks for your input everyone.  I'm a huge Alex wade fan and read and reread his books a bunch.  I'm not sure I'm aware of the one with the very small saltbox plans you speak of Mark.  I'd love to know the title, I'll get it for sure.

  John, even though the longest rafter length is 18.5 ft running only 15 feet at an 8 pitch, will there still need to be load bearing beam or wall along that span somewhere?  Even if I use 2x12 rafters 16 inches o.c., will this work out?  

I'm beginning to think that the saltbox idea may be too tricky for a newbie like me.

Hmmm. . . I'll keep thinking and hunting.  thanks so much for the wisdom. . .

Best,

K. Williams

[DavidLeBlanc]

I have a suggestion that may give you what you want and I *think* (but don't have the experience to be sure) that it's easy to build.

The idea: build a conventional roof, per John's plans, and then raise a shed dormer on one side of the roof. Ends up looking like:


You could do the whole side of the roof and end up pretty much with a true saltbox, but (personal asthetics), I tend to prefer at least a bit of original roof pitch at either end of the dormer. If I was going to do almost the entire roof, I would leave at least 4' at either end for that.

Here's another set of images. These are one of John's client's projects, including some construction details: http://countryplans.com/velsko.html

Hope this helps!

[jraabe]

Shed dormers are a fairly straightforward solution for usable space upstairs.

When you are using standard rafter framing you can just double the rafters under the dormer walls.

See page 45 in this PDF booklet:
http://www.awc.org/pdf/WCD1-300.pdf

If you are doing a truss roof (site built or engineered) you can often double the trusses and get the same effect.

[Khalif Williams]

Thanks for the dormer suggestion David and for the varification of relative ease, John.  I'll look into it right away.  back to my graph paper pad (my new best friend!).

I hope to post pictures of our project on the site once we get going and share any wisdom I happen uppon in the process.  Wish me luck!

All the best,
K. Williams

[markbrown]

I went back through my  Alex Wade books and "Low-cost, Energy-Effieent Shelterb for the owner builder" and the smallest salt box is 20 x 24.  In the more recent book  A Design and Construction Handbook for Energy-Saving Houses  the main focus is on a 26' x 36 ' salvt box with a nice shed dormer 12' wide.  a 12 , 14 or 16' wide house x 26' salt box style would be a nice home.  some where but i know not where I saw a 12' x 24' it was really tow 12x12' cabins one being one story and one being two story both with shed roos, now that is simple to build, I have no way to sketch it out for you but John might.  Itis pretty cool looking and off the two story on the other side could be another 1 story .  I have thought of a 1 and 1/2 story shead roof house with the sheed roof running the 24 or 32 ft length the width being 12, 14, or 16 feet and a few wings in the future of one story if needed.  lots of possibilities, shed roofs are oh so easy to build.

Mark

[khalif_williams]

Thanks, Mark.  I just picked up Wade's "Guide to Affordable Houses" (very hard to find) which has a lot of great small houses in it.  

I've actually decided to try our cabin with a gable roof.  The saltbox engineering, even on such a small scale, had me a bit timid.  I can't afford to stand around and do a bunch of head-scratching.  Building it myself on weekends starting with the thaw and a big push over a 3 week vacation in July.  It needs to be liveable by the end of September (second child due).

The new design is actually more efficient and graceful than our original so I'm pleased I got the input from the folks on this board when I did.  I think it willbe easier for me to build, too.  I'm a newbie for sure so any compexity I can take out without sacrificing anything, I'm all for it.

Thanks!
K. Williams

[markbrown]

So exactly what are you going to build?  and is this your primary housing, I am very interested.  My tech math class is looking for a project!!

Mark

[khalif_williams]

Mark,

We live on the coast of Maine, in a town called Blue Hill.  We just got a nice woodland acre and a half from some friends on which we willl build.  The cabin I'll be building is 16x20 and will be my families primary dwelling for about 2 years or so, until we can build the main house, which isn't likely to be too too much larger actually.  This cabin will end up being a combination of things likely; guest house, workshop, play space for my children, etc.

The 20 ft long walls will be 12 feet high baloon framed with and the lofts (8 feet wide at either end connected by a slightly off center, 4 ft. long, catwalk) will be clearspanning 2x10s or 2x12s set at a height allowing 8 ft ceilings downstairs.

Enterance way, tiny bathroom (humanure central) and tiny  180 degree spiral stairwell are all lined up  in a row against the south facing, 16 foot long rake wall and the living/kitchen area fills the rest of the cabin (about 16x16).

I'm going to use conventional stick framing with just 2x4 walls.  I've gotten all my windows already from salvage (14 for about $200; insulated glass, wood interiors).  I hope to be able to do exposed rafters with 2x6 t&g for both loft floor and roof sheathing.

The roof is an 8 pitch and gives tall old me about a 7 ft wide area of standing room upstairs; plenty.

I'm trying to balance getting soemtihng up fast and relatively cheap with making it jjust big enough and nice enough that if we get stuck in there longer than we think, we're not going to go too too crazy.

Tell me about this math class.  I'd love to become a "project", whatever that means.

Best,
K. Williams

[glenn kangiser]

At my conventional house near Fresno, years ago I did a addition similar to what you are talking about.  I did balloon framing - really liked it. It is not common around here - I did 2x6 studs to top with a let in 1x4 ribbon to help support upper floor joists.  I did a knotty pine 1x12 floor with boards that were grooved to look like 1x6's -I think the edges were shiplapped and when together still showed the groove.  I don't remember the name of it but it was solid wood..  We varnished the ceiling -looks great.  Over the 1x12 floor we used 3/4 chip board or OSB to keep cost down, then carpeted over that.  No nice wood floor that way though.  

[Cal]

Khalif,

I am building something similer in Friendship that I would be happy to show you.  I went a slightly different way with 16x24 and 10' walls.  As I was building by myself, I thought the 12' wall would be too much to  stand up by myself.  As it was, building 8'w and 10' t  sections, with two sheets of plywood was still a pretty heavy lift.

I also went with 2x'6s on 24" centers for thicker insulation.  I think I remember one of John's comments about  2x4 & 16"oc using the same amount of wood as 2x6 & 24"oc.  As I wanted the insulating depth, I didn't compare using more of the cheaper 2x4s vs. fewer, more costly, 2x6s.

With a 10' side wall I lowered the loft floor joists to 7 1/2' and made the roof pitch 12/12. which gives me about 7' width at bit over 6' height in the loft.

I would be happy to answer any questions or send some pictures.

Cal

[khalif_williams]

Thank, Cal.  I'd love to see pictures if you have them handy!   And please tell the story of building by yourself.  I'm certianly interested in learning what I can.

I priced out both 2x4 @ 16 oc and 2x6 @ 24 oc and the 2x4 came in a little cheaper though the insulation was a lot cheaper (using cotton denim batts).  I'd read that 2x4 at 16 oc is using les wood, but whose to say.  I hear so many contradictory things about this subject.

Regarding wall height, I'll luckily have good friends around for wall raising and the use of some wall jacks so I can raise up  full 20 ft wall lengths sheathed with enough help.   I've put the 3-4 foot knee wall upstairs because of headroom (I'm 6'5'') plus I'm scared enough of heights without having to go with 12/12 roof to get the headroom.  It'll be scary enough for me on the 8/12.

Very interested in seeing your project.  Do you have digital pics handy?

Best,
K. Williams

[Cal]

No problem, I tried the private message with my email address so you can telll me where to send the pics.

If I were 6' 5" I would want 8' ceilings also, but I'm not and decided I could get away with a two foot knee wall.

Insulation is cheaper for 2x4 walls but it has a lower R value.

Cal

[John Raabe]

If you have some pics that are around 550 pixels wide, they can be posted right in these messages for all to see.

Info is here: http://countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=news;action=display;num=1099677798.

Sounds like an interesting project!

[Cal]

Thanks for the suggestion John but I couldn't make my picture stay small. Sent thm as attachments to Khalif.

Cal

[glenn-k]

To make my pictures smaller I e-mail them to myself.  I think it is xp that gives me the option to shrink them for e-mail- then I host them at tinypics and they are small enough to fit the forum.  I know there are programs to shrink pix but this is a lazy quick way for me.