Springs/Foundations

[Idaho 181]

I need some ideas/advise on coping with some springs on our property. We have 160 acres in central Idaho. we are going to attempt to build a cabin on this piece in the next few months. About 20x30 ft. Problem is there are some moderate to small springs in the best areas for the cabin to be located. We are being "permitted" by the Army Corps of Engineers at this time to install a spring box on the larger of the springs. What are the best ways to deal with some wet ground near the foundation site? Is it viable to just put in a Post & Pier foundation and be above the damp ground or just bag it and try another area?

[poppy]

One of the reasons I moved my cabin site, even after putting in concrete piers was because a mini spring sprang up last spring immediately up slope from the center of the foot print.  I don't have real springs, but ground/surface water tends to concentrate in certain areas on my land and spout water after a hard rain.

If it were me, I would not put a foundation in an area subject to water.  Water is not the friend of a foundation of any type. Ideally, the ground slopes away from the foundation in all directions.

I had little choice than to build in the middle of a slope.  My new location has shown no signs of water concentration, plus I also changed the foundation design, but am still using piers.

[annelupton]

Yikes!  There's no way to avoid the area?  I think you're biggest problem will be in the winter with the freeze-thaw cycles eating away at your foundation.  You may be able to put piers in now, but I predict they'll only live a few years before the freezing of moisture starts seriously cracking them.

Can you install another springbox(s) around the spring that's closest to your site and channel the water away?  Will the ACOE actually be coming out to the site to inspect it?

[Idaho 181]

You folks are probably correct.  It's a super beautiful piece of ground and while it is 160 acres, there is a canyon at the west end that no one has been in since 1940 because of the roughness of the decent into the canyon. We were hoping to site the cabin overlooking this canyon.  There are about four springs right in the best area for viewing.....guess  It's not the best area after all.  The ACOE hands off after the permit is issued to the Soil Conservation guys. It's just that this a a real nice spot and I didn't want to give it up with out checking around as to alternative foundations. The south eighty acres is in this draw with the springs. If needs be I can sent a pic of the draw for you to see where the water is flowing.

Thanks

[ScottA]

It might be ok if you can get your piers down on bedrock. I'd keep the structure up off the ground for sure.

[tc-vt]

Maybe curtain drains, perimeter drains and possibly importing well drained material like crushed stone on which to build the foundation will divert the water.

Tom

[Idaho 181]

Good suggestion on the drain rock.  I checked this morning with a guy that hauls rock.  Says the truck can haul 12 yards of rock, and it's $6.00 per yard....then $75.00 per hour for the truck/driver. Problem is the place is 25 miles one way to the rock pit....steep grade involved.  I will look into this option tomorrow. I don't want to give up on this site just yet.  I guess the water could just seep through the rock when it gets down to it.  If the foundation piers were to be cast in those cardboard sleeves I might be able to get down 4 ft.  Maybe that could make this do able??  Thanks very much....sorry about all of the questions.

[Don_P]

4' deep pier and beam? In saturated muck? I'd rethink that really hard.

[Idaho 181]

Ok   Will do.  In your opinion what's the biggest drawback? Cost? Functionality? Looks right now that even if I went with the standard poured foundation I'm gonna have problems.  Just have to regroup. Sometimes having a spring that waters the cattle isn't as good a deal for other uses.  I guess I'm trying to make something go that isn't gonna work.  Thanks

[Don_P]

Cost means nothing to me, that's your concern. Your safety, or more importantly, the safety of innocents, is my concern.
A foundation needs to be able to do 2 things, support all gravity loads without sinking AND transmit any lateral loads to the earth without overturning or failing.

A pier and beam foundation has relativel little bearing area under each pier so it requires pretty stiff soil to prevent settlement. Excavating until you hit a solid footing soil or bedrock will provide this. It may or may not be under there at an economic depth.

Folks that build pier and beam typically don't appreciate that the soil is providing much of the resistance preventing the piers from toppling. If the soil is soft and the wind blows hard the soil will not provide adequate bracing. You can brace the piers by other means.

I helped build a house that had a spring flowing through the basement. It's been 20+ years, the basement is dry. We redirected the water around the foundation and provided drainage underneath as well.

If you have access to a geotech engineer it would certainly help.

[Idaho 181]

OK  Back to the drawing board!!

Appreciate the info!!

[firefox]

One question you might ask yourself. Does anyone in your family have artheritus?  Damp does not go well with that.

That being said, how about digging a large swimming pool or pond near the house and divert the water to it. Then maybe pipe the overflow to the edge of the ravine. ie if you have all this nice water, why not do something fun with it.

Bruce

[Idaho 181]

Bruce   good counsel.  Problem is there are three springs that have some flows to them. They flow down into the draw already and then flow into the canyon. We are installing a spring box on the one with the most flow and have been told this work will most likely increase the flow.  The problem here in Idaho with the pond is West Nile Virus so we don't want too much standing around. We have 25 pair of cattle on this piece keeping the grass down, but they are going to be removed this November after that we hope to get the foundation in. I think I've just got to bite the bullet and move the site somewhere to the west. The view won't be as good and the power company will be charging us nearly $20 K to get to the property line as it is.  Moving to the west is going to cost more in that regard. You are correct about arthritis as well.....I'm still carrying shrapnel in my knees from a tour of Vietnam and it's an issue. This was my wife & I retirement dream.....but it looks like it's going to be farther into the north property line. Thanks to all for the advice and suggestions, I appreciate it.
Best to you all.

[tc-vt]

If the power is going to cost $20k to bring in and you have cell service, give off-grid alternative energy a consideration.  With all of the tax incentives, it's gotten cheaper.  My small solar system cost about $4 to 5k

Tom

[Idaho 181]

That was another plus for the location we chose....we had a straight shot to Cottonwood Butte 12 miles to the SW and have cell service.  Farther to the west along the north property line we don't get service. We have been told also, that if we go with a metal roof it will impair the use of cell phones in the cabin.  Gotta check this out as well. Will your solar system support lights and the basics?  We were thinking of propane for lighting and heating as well as the stove.  Thought about an Honda generator of about 6500 watts.

[MountainDon]

Re: cell coverage and metal roofs.

We notice a drop of a bar at most, no more, inside the cabin compared to outside. Three or four becomes two or three. We have a metal roof and no windows on the cabin end acing the tower location. Standing by a window on either sidewall sometimes causes the signal strength to gain a little. In any event there is not enough of a drop at most times, for the phone to have problems, most of the time.

FYI, signal strength is also affected by the volume of calls on the particular tower at any one time. More calls lowers the individual strength.

[rick91351]

Where my ranch is at east of Boise and north of Mountain Home we have a lot of springs on that side of the area.  My best advise is stay away from any springs.  If you ever desire to have a real septic system, and your house is built in such an area you might dig perk holes all day and never find one Central District Health will sign off on.  (Voice of experience.)  Me and the inspector got to be on first name bases.  He was an older gentleman about ready to retire.  I finely jokingly asked, after being turned down the third time. "Okay then just where can I build?  I have 640 acres here.  Where do you like.?  Inspector said very dryly "I can not do that.  I can not tell you where to build.  That is your decision where to build."  I said to him, "Everywhere I have wanted to build you have said no.  So where do you want me to build."  He sheepishly sort of pointed to a spot away from where we were at.  He said "I kind of like the way that looks.  But I can't tell until you dig another perk hole.  I just sort of like the way it looks."  Dang if he was not right.  It was dry in a very wet year and the soil had very good drainage properties.  In effect our septic system dictated where our house will be built.  Septic system is in; as is the power but it is about 500 yards from where we wanted it.  We are getting use to it and really now feel it by far was a better location. 

Next springs come and go, drought years have really cut back on a lot of hydro activities here in Idaho as well as the Pacific Northwest.  If you have springs now in all probability you really will have springs if you have several years of very high moisture.  Such areas also make it very hard to hold a road, a drive way or a lane what ever you choose to call it.  I am sure that you might be able to work out a foundation and plenty of drainage.  But I really question the wisdom of doing so with all the other things involved.  Have you considered location of out buildings and such.  Where do your cattle winter?  Where will they calve out at?  Are you looking at living there year around or seasonal?  All these questions would certainly have a bearing on where I would choose.

Just one spud to another

rlr               

[JRR]

There is, or use to be, some villages in Fla that were built on shallow piers pretty far out in the ocean.  Accessible by boat.  Some stood in place a number of years.  Occassionally they would get washed away and then be rebuilt/repaired again.  I suppose they were so "cool" that the owners would go thru the expense of maintenance and rebuilding.  I think the state lawyers caught up with them and made laws that would allow no further expansion or replacement.

Accept the fact that nothing lasts forever.  And your building site is more harsh than most.  But that does not mean, that with some care in design; your structure won't give you many years of holiday/vacation/retirement service.  And spread over the years, the cost will probably be insignificant.

[rocking23nf]

you should watch the holmes on homes new orleans episode, he build the home by driving 20 feet or so logs into the wet ground.

[Idaho 181]

Rick
You must be near Prairie? We are on the Nez Perce Reservation in Lewis County, and have a home in Boise. Have this 160 up there that we are trying to retire to. Going to sell out the home here as we spend a lot of our time up in Kooskia. I hear you on the perk test and have gotten location advise from two of the Older Local guys that have farmed/ranched there all their lives. I've gotten mixed advice as to the site based upon local weather and winter snowfall.  We have 75.74 acres under wheat and the cattle are on the 84.21 acres from June till November.....then down to some good winter pasture in the Clearwater Valley near Kooskia. I'm heading up to meet with the Soil Conservation Bureaucrats about the spring permit from the ACOE. I believe we will make the final decision at that time and most likely move the cabin site back to the canyon overlook.

Best to you and yours.

[firefox]

"You are correct about arthritis as well.....I'm still carrying shrapnel in my knees from a tour of Vietnam and it's an issue."

Trust me, you want it as dry as is possible. You can get used to some pain, but there is a limit, and
when you reach that, you end up not being able to do anything, and that is worse than the pain.

Bruce

[rick91351]

Wow you are a 100% right about Smith's Prairie or just Prairie.  Our place is on Long Gulch Road on the way over to the Middle Fork of the Boise.  There is a Forest Service Road that heads there on our property as well called Strawberry Loop Road.   

We plan to retire up there; but for another two years and three months I am a locomotive engineer.  I work for Union Pacific out of Nampa and currently run to LaGrande, Oregon.  We currently live south of Nampa and we burn up a lot of gas and diesel running back and forth to Prairie at least at once a week during the summer as we have a nice sized orchard started up there plus all our vacations as of late have been taken up there.       

We will start logging this year for lumber to build the barn and shop with.  We a have a couple friends up there that own a saw mills.  We will send the logs to one of them.  We might do the barn and pour the shop floor next year.  Sort of the plan anyway.  The house is still on paper.  Marching orders from the wife seems to be master bed room on the ground floor and laundry / pantry room dedicated to just that.  Other than that ......  So we draw and plan.  The last house on the property was not worth saving so we said good by old friend and demolished it last year.  After the first snow last year some how the pile of demolished debris caught fire.  When I was a little kid that was the cutest, well cared for home.  The years sure took there toll.  That was on a 320 we picked up about twenty years ago and you would never believe what we gave for it.

rlr 

[Idaho 181]

Thanks Rick
I PMed you!

[tc-vt]

I have been using a JD Teck celluar booster http://www.jdteck.com/
for about three years and it has worked very well.  Wilson electronics boosters seem to have a good reputation.
http://www.wilsonelectronics.com/

My solar is four 115 watt evergreen panels, eight 6 volt golf cart batteries from Sam's Club, a Xantrex Prosine 2.0 2000 watt pure sine inverter/charger and a Morningstar TS-60 charge controller.   My electric usage is mainly computer and satellite modem, a few lights and stereo.  I rarely run the generator, mostly in the winter.  My refrigerator and stove are propane and I heat with wood.

Tom

[Idaho 181]

Appreciate that Tom.  I'm checking out the cell phone booster today as we are going to be needing it up there anyway.  I will also check out Sam's Club on the batteries.  Been looking at doing this regardless where we site the cabin on the place.