Quote from: rick91351 on December 16, 2013, 11:20:44 AM
As far as the 8000 hours I am not too impressed with that and claims working in the field

Could care less what you are impressed with or believe about me.  I'm fully qualified, trained and work for myself so that's all that matters.

I laughed when you said the inspector signed off on it which means nothing.  Inspectors are often wrong and don't see everything.  I have had times over my career where I challenged bogus calls by the inspector and asked him to cite the NEC or show me a local admendment and he says "you know what your right"   This happens all the time not only with me but all professional electricians.  The "inspectors" come in and try to make up codes on the spot.  If it's not in the NEC or they have a written local admendment to a code that doesn't fly.

Im not here to argue.  It just bugs me when someone says "electric was the easiest" then makes statements of how things are done as fact when they are wrong.   

Ok just for kicks I'll throw one out where he is giving bad information

"Don't try to put 15 amp switches or outlets on 12 AWG wire." 

Why?  It's perfectly code compliant (unless amended locally) and done all the time by electricians.  The only difference between a 20 amp and a 15 amp outlet is the face plates.  The 20 amp has a T slot so you can plug a 20 amp plug into it.  Both outlets are rated to carry 20 amps.   This may be minor false information but he is talking with confidence that what he says is right and saying "electrical was the easiest".

Quote from: flyingvan on December 16, 2013, 12:31:29 AM
    Here are my sources---first, the national electrical code.  Second, for the theoretical stuff, from a good friend that has a masters in electrical engineering---he's the one that explained to me the importance of balancing the two legs and the less load on the neutral, the more efficiently the house runs.  He showed me graphs and things that were well beyond my level of understanding but I'll use him as a resource to verify any conceptual issues that arise here. 
     But I'm glad you're chiming in here, Eddie.  First, if you can convince me that, as an amateur, I've wired something incorrectly that I can change, I'll be in your debt.  If you are not able to do that, I'll assume it's a blow to your ego to see people can successfully wire entire houses after reading a book or two and understanding the concepts. 
      You've already provided some valuable examples of fallacious argument, the study of which is a hobby of mine.

"Honestly everything you say about electrical work is completely absurd..."

Excellent example of an Ad Hominem attack.   Attack the person, not the argument.  You've had time to provide multiple replies to provide an example of something unsafe this amateur has done, but instead attack the amateur.

"I have 8000 hours of apprenticeship and years working in the field".  "I am an electrician who has been properly trained and do it every day I am not a diyer"
(Keep in mind this is a DIYer website)  This is a classic example of "Argument from authority".   the claim that the speaker is an expert, and so should be trusted.
There are degrees and areas of expertise. The speaker is actually claiming to be more expert, in the relevant subject area, than anyone else in the room. There is also an implied claim that expertise in the area is worth having. For example, claiming expertise in something hopelessly quack (like iridology) is actually an admission that the speaker is gullible.

Another anticipated fallacious argument here is "Non Sequitur".  There are two things going on here---one, how my house is wired and two, my conceptual understanding of electricity.  It's possible that I have a misunderstanding of electrical physics but still wired my houses correctly.  It is also possible I understand physics perfectly but made a practical error in wiring. 

"Appeal To Authority".   Taking a selective quote from the NEC to draw your own conclusion about who is 'qualified'.   

   Are you planning on building, Eddie?  Will you hire out everything except the wiring?  I had a very similar conversation with an architect who would not accept I could draw my own plans without training.  I am not qualified for that either.  Plumbing?  again, in my opinion much tougher than electrical, I'm not qualified, but the toilets in my first owner/builder project still flush perfectly after 10 years, into a septic system I wasn't qualified to install.  I wasn't qualified to frame, pour a foundation, create some stone work, run fiber optics, do roofing, figure sheer loading, or any of the other tasks required to construct a home. 
If you've done any of these things, Eddie, you were probably no more 'qualified' to do them than we are to run wire.  If you haven't, you are no authority on what the most difficult, and what the easiest, stages of construction are!
   But we are diy'ers.  We find forums like this to get over the hurdles.  We use common sense, and research the span tables and nailing schedules and required strong ties and proper wire gauges and breaker amps.  We read the NEC to learn what gets grounded and bonded.  We look to the IPC or UPC to learn how much through roof vent net area we need.   We study airflows and btu's and return air and combustion air; carbon monoxide can make people just as dead as electricity if not handled correctly.

   Finally--I've walked through quite a few mass produced homes, in various stages of construction, built by qualified people.  Know what I noticed?  'Qualified' gets you to the point where you know the shortcuts.  You learn what the very minimum to pass inspection are.  The goal is speed and low cost to get the subcontracts, not the very best house that can be built.  I could have passed inspection with 2x4 walls, but for a few hundred dollars more framed it with 2x6's.  It's superior for a number of reasons, but saving that few hundred dollars times 10,000 units adds up.  Most mass produced houses around here are wired with 14AWG wire throughout; for a little more, I went with 12AWG.  Can you tell me how this will burn my house down?

   By the way, if your home is ever on fire, PLEASE don't wait for us qualified, trained professionals to evacuate your house and provide your own fire suppression.  It will harm my ego exactly zero to hear you used your own hose and fire extinguisher to safely mitigate the situation.  I trust your abilities extend beyond your electrical expertise.

I didn't real your whole reply...
I have no problem with DIYers doing electrical work because they help keep me employed with residential work.  Most of my work in residential is repairing home owner work.

Again a code book is not for the untrained to use it says it right in the NEC.  An inspector can deny any inspections just based on that if he wanted to but they don't because the local government makes lots of money on inspections.

I don't have an EGO just don't like DIYers claiming the electrical trade is so easy.  I put in a lot of time and training to get to where I am.  IF all it took was reading the NEC why would they require 8000 hour apprenticeships?  Electrical work involves knowing math, the code, theory and the bulk of the work the mechanics.  I worked for a large company that hired an electrical engineer and ended up firing him because hands on he didn't keep up.

Quote"Don't try to put 15 amp switches or outlets on 12 AWG wire."

Why?  It's perfectly code compliant ............This may be minor false information ...............

It is not going to kill anyone though. If that is the worst thing, it is not a big deal. As you stated, inspectors do make errors too. They are human and subject to err. This is not news. It is true that inspectors of all trades have been known to make some bad calls. They also make some very good ones from what I recall seeing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyhow, it would be great if you could offer your expertise when some of our DIY builders reach an impasse in their electrical.

 
"2) 15 amp breakers get 14 AWG wire or better.  20's get 12 AWG.  Don't try to put 15 amp switches or outlets on 12 AWG wire."

   This is an excellent example of owner/builders not taking shortcuts.  Putting 15 amp things on 12 AWG wires IS forbidden in many jusirdictions, and the differences are not just in the faceplate as you claim.  There are 15 amp switches and outlets with push in terminals that will not accept 12 AWG wire, uless you shave it down and force it in.  (BTW--screw terminals always give a better contact than push in terminals.  I consider them a shortcut and they also have been linked to fires and frequent circuit failures)
    If owner/builders follow the rule above, are they more likely, or less likely, to be safe and compliant? 
     What do YOU consider the easiest stage of home construction to be?

    I realize this is an owner/builder forum, not a semantics/rhetoric forum but I just can't resist. 

    This provided another fallacious argument example--Argument of the Half Truth (suppressed evidence)  The entire single numbered line I wrote encourages builders to start at 20 amps, use the correct guage wire (or better!) and end with a 20 amp outlet/switch.  By cutting the quote in half, the context changed, though I don't think to the level of making the statement 'absurd'.

Further, the electrical code forbids putting 20a outlets on 15a service, with good reason.  My statement was carefully made to encompass possible variations of the electrical code and provide an awareness of the importance of breakers, wires, and fixtures to be sized properly.

     We get house fires wired by qualified electricians that ran 14 AWG wire off 20a breakers.  After seeing it enough times, I thought it important to include.

 

Quote from: flyingvan on December 16, 2013, 10:48:29 PM

"2) 15 amp breakers get 14 AWG wire or better.  20's get 12 AWG.  Don't try to put 15 amp switches or outlets on 12 AWG wire."

   This is an excellent example of owner/builders not taking shortcuts.  Putting 15 amp things on 12 AWG wires IS forbidden in many jusirdictions, and the differences are not just in the faceplate as you claim.  There are 15 amp switches and outlets with push in terminals that will not accept 12 AWG wire, uless you shave it down and force it in.  (BTW--screw terminals always give a better contact than push in terminals.  I consider them a shortcut and they also have been linked to fires and frequent circuit failures)
    If owner/builders follow the rule above, are they more likely, or less likely, to be safe and compliant? 
     What do YOU consider the easiest stage of home construction to be?

    I realize this is an owner/builder forum, not a semantics/rhetoric forum but I just can't resist. 

    This provided another fallacious argument example--Argument of the Half Truth (suppressed evidence)  The entire single numbered line I wrote encourages builders to start at 20 amps, use the correct guage wire (or better!) and end with a 20 amp outlet/switch.  By cutting the quote in half, the context changed, though I don't think to the level of making the statement 'absurd'.

Further, the electrical code forbids putting 20a outlets on 15a service, with good reason.  My statement was carefully made to encompass possible variations of the electrical code and provide an awareness of the importance of breakers, wires, and fixtures to be sized properly.

     We get house fires wired by qualified electricians that ran 15 AWG wire off 20a breakers.  After seeing it enough times, I thought it important to include.

Yet again you are wrong...

1. What is 15 AWG ?   no such thing.  Are you talking about 14 gauge wire? (this alone tells me you have no clue what you are talking about)
2. Qualified electricians don't use 14 gauge wire on 20 amp circuits.

3.  "Further, the electrical code forbids putting 20a outlets on 15a service, with good reason."  Really what code book are you reading because it's certainly not the NEC you are reading.  And what is the "good reason"?

AGAIN it's perfectly NEC code compliant to use 15 amp outlets on 20 amp circuits with 12 gauge wire.  I suggest you learn the code and read NEC 210.21 (B)(3)   It's done all the time in 99% of homes it's not a shortcut at all.  Some small towns may have a local admendment requiring 20 amp outlets on 20 amp circuits but as far as the NEC it is code compliant and done almost everywhere.  I have worked in 100s of homes in my career and it's what I see all the time.  Nothing dangerous about it.  The 15 amp receptacles are designed to handle 20 amps of current.

Lastly all the other rhetoric where you are trying to tell me about the differences in switches and outlets...come on man really?  I do this for a living and I'm getting ready to go to work now.

Remember NEC 210.21 (B)(3)        I suggest you tone down your confidence and trying to teach people electrical work because you clearly are not qualified to give advice on this trade.   I will point out other wrong info you claim as FACT later tonight if the mods will let me which I doubt for obvious reasons...I know what I'm talking about.

Have a good one

Eddie, surprise!

Let's have a look at eddie's contributions.  But first, there are polite, diplomatic ways of pointing out the falacy of someone's posted message content. I try to always come from the diplomatic side. I hope I always suceed; sometimes it is difficult.  There is a difference and I hope that everyone can see the difference.

#1

Quote"1. What is 15 AWG ?  "

I think we could cut a little slack on that. I would bet that from time to time we have all had "brain farts" or had disconnects between what we were thinking and what came out of our mouths or what our fingers typed. I saw that and thought "he must mean 15 amp, not 15 AWG."

Before looking at #3 I want to make a note. ... When talking about electrical circuits the words outlet and receptacle are frequently confused or used inappropriately.  In NEC parlance an outlet is anywhere power is being used. That could be a light, a hard wired motor, or a receptacle. A receptacle is a device that accepts a plug on a corded device. A switch is neither an outlet ot a recetacle. So when the NEC states a circuit can have no more than "n" outlets the meaning is to include lights, smoke detectors, and recetacles.

#3   

Quoteflyingvan stated: "code forbids putting 20a outlets on 15a service"
eddie1278 stated: "it's perfectly NEC code compliant to use 15 amp outlets on 20 amp circuits with 12 gauge wire."

Seems to be a brain fart or perhaps a disconnect between brain and fingers there. 

See the problem there? Two different things. One is talking 20 amp outlets the other is talking 15 amp outlets.... and they are both talking different gauge wires.   A mental disconnect, IMO.  Grade me on that:    diplomatic or not diplomatic? 

I do not have an NEC code book, but there are a couple of things I am confident in stating.
A)  The NEC does state that if a circuit has only one outlet, the outlet must be rated no less than the rating of the circuit. (Circuit being the overcurrent protection device and the wire.)

Now bear with me on this next one, eddie. As I said I do not have a copy of the exact code wording... So I may have outlet and receptacle mixed up... When the code references a single receptacle, does it mean a receptacle that has only one plug in point? Does that mean the common duplex receptacle is actually two? Clearing that up would be helpful.

B)  If a circuit has two or more receptacles then the receptacles may be rated at less than the circuit rating. So a circuit with a 20 amp breaker using 12 ga. wire can have receptacles (note the plurality) that are rated at 15 amps. That does make sense. The 15 amp receptacles have the two blades parallel to each other and can not accept a 20 amp rated plug which has the neutral rotated 90 degrees.

I am not sure if the code uses the word outlet or receptacle. (I ran into my daily limit of 2 views unless I pay up...) Or maybe the NEC uses an either / or  


In closing I would think that there is something in the NEC that does prohibit placement of a 20 amp receptacle in a circuit wired with 12 gauge wire and protected by a 15 amp breaker. That would seem to make some sense. Right? 

It would also seem that if a DIY'er kept all components in a circuit to be rated the same as the breaker they could do no harm.

"3.  "Further, the electrical code forbids putting 20a outlets on 15a service, with good reason."  Really what code book are you reading because it's certainly not the NEC you are reading.  And what is the "good reason"?"



so, eddie, are you saying a 20 amp outlet on a 14 AWG circuit (presumably protected by a 15 Amp breaker) is good practice ?

it would seem that this would be setting up the home owner to overload that circuit by plugging in 20 amp loads -- certainly not a good practice IMO whether it meets code or not


As a technician that has worked with instruments that produce high volages up to 13 KV safely for 35 years I have a healthy respect for safe and prudent practices -- setting up someone to overload a 15 amp circuit with 20 amp outlets sounds neither safe or prudent whether or not it meets code

Guys
Eddie is living rent free in our minds. Evict him.

Tommy

   Tommy---good advice, but really he was pretty easy to dismiss early on--people who have a deluded sense of self intelligence are usually pretty lonely and dangers only to themselves.   I just wanted to be sure I wasn't giving out bad info so in a way it was good, made me re-read what I'd written and had an electrical engineer friend review it too.   
    When I consider that half the population is below average intelligence, then factor in some stupid stuff I've done and my grade levels back in school, I'm not willing to believe I'm any smarter than others I meet.  Geez, how could you ever really tell anyway?  However, I AM goal oriented and finish what I start.  I think intelligence is kind of like a book case.  You could have a huge wall sized book case but no books, or just fill it with comic books and porn and romance novels.  Or, you could have a small, modest book case you've filled up with technical manuals that you can draw from to get you where you want to go.
    I don't want anyone to think I'm smart.  I want to do my job at AirOps safely and effectively, I want to be a good dad and husband, and I want to build and help other people build.   I've needed help, but for me I want the help to be at the planning and 'how do I...' stage so I can do it correctly and by myself.  Information exchange is absolutley critical.

OK, back to the project.   Got the next tier of the slipforms poured.   I have to carry each bag of red-e-crete the 120' down to the site then use a bucket to dump it in the forms

Wow, what an excellent read this thread has been.  Hats off to you, flyingvan.

How many bags of red-e-crete do you think you've used on this place?

Not sure---but if you take the number of red-e-crete bags you can run through a Kobalt Big Cat mixer before you kill it and multiply that by two, you'll be pretty close
Thanks for the kind words!

(tap tap tap....Is this thing on??) 

     After a long break due to work demands and ventral hernia repair surgery, I'm back to work on the outbuilding.  It's 9X12, slipform foundation, with a sub-grade laundry room to avoid freeze issues.  Today I finished pouring the concrete.  It's about 100' from the closest spot I can get the truck to the building site so I'm lugging 90# sacks of premix down there.  (I know what you're thinking.  Doctor Mazzen it isn't so much lifting that causes a hernia, but for every 10 pounds over your ideal weight you carry, your intra abdominal pressure DOUBLES when lifting.  He said if I can get to 184 and stay there I'll never have another hernia)
      Anyway it's going to be nice to be out of the dirt and doing some framing again.  I'll sketch the design when I get a chance

Quote from: flyingvan on March 13, 2014, 11:29:56 AM
Not sure---but if you take the number of red-e-crete bags you can run through a Kobalt Big Cat mixer before you kill it and multiply that by two, you'll be pretty close
Thanks for the kind words!

Damn... that's a lot of bags of mix.  I've had that same mixer for 8 yrs. and have mixed hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of bags in it and have yet to kill it, I did have to replace the cord on it once though.

Looking good though

Well, I am glad to see that the hernia repair must have gone well since you were able to carry and mix so much concrete.   

Something I have never done much of is mix concrete in a small mixer.  Seems that you are my go to guy!!!  With that Lowes mixer and using the bagged mix - how much and how do you load it ie water and mix.  How long do you let it mix.  You know stuff like that.  Stuff I never had to wonder or worry about driving ready mix truck or help someone finish. 

What have you found that works best for flat work?  I have a couple yards here and a couple yards there things getting ready to go.  Too small to order a truck - truck charge would be way more than the cement. Sort of thinking just hitting it in like half yard or so pours, and using metal expansion joints.        

   Two different answers---one for sack mixes, one for mixing your own (always preferable if you can get the sand/aggregate/cement near to where you're working.  If not lugging redi-mix is the best option)
   Stage your mixer on a flat surface, shim the feet/wheels if needed.  If you can keep the sacks in the truck it's easier to lift and carry them...Do I trial run with the wheelbarrow from the mixer to the pour, making sure your path is clear and convenient.   Yesterday you did the forming, steel, and materials; today you'll pour.   Have a good sprayer on your hose and a kiddie pool or something for a washout later.
   Spray water into the mixer.  Don't overdo it.  Go get your first sack---stand it on end and spank the top of it to make a little airspace--there is a top and a bottom to these bags, top being where the lettering on the bag starts (Like the 'R' for Red-E-Crete) this side tears easier, the other is stronger so wont blow out.  Take a breath, rip the sack open.  When the dust clears breath again.  Pick the bag up and dump it in the mixer.
   Adjust the water in the mixer to soupy consistency.  If some concrete is sticking to the back tip the barrel a little until it rinses itself off.  Go get another bag and dump it in.  (My mixer handles 3 60's or two 90's).  Add water a little at a time.  Tip the barrel a bit if needed for a complete mix.  It should be as thick as oatmeal.  Go get your wheelbarrow and park it under the barrel.  Tip the barrel to fill the wheelbarrow; don't worry about getting it all out.
   Now spray more water in the barrel to let is scour out things a bit.  Back out your wheelbarrow enough to make room for the next mix.  While that is mixing, go dump your wheelbarrow load and roughly place it---don't work it yet.  Start in the corner away from you and add to the margin.
    At some point the first mix will start setting up---when it loses its sheen, just finish that section with a trowel while a load is mixing.
    I know you must have an old bag of concrete somewhere that turned to stone before getting used---use it now to weigh down the empty sacks in a stack so they squish flat.  They WILL blow into your work if you don't, and gathering them later no-squished is a dusty chore.
    Every now and then tap your forms to settle the concrete.  When you're done rinse the barrel and dump the water in the wheelbarrow, then dump that in the kiddie pool.

    If you're mixing your own, put water in, then three shovels of gravel.  Let it scour while you do something else (troweling, tapping, moving sacks...) then two shovels of sand, adjust your water, then one shovel of cement.  3-2-1. 

   AnnaMarie knows she gets a pedicure the evening after a mix.  Here's why---the cement robbed your hand of its oils and they'll crack really good.  I tried gloves but the ones that will hold up are hard to work in....So she gets an extended foot massage with plenty emu oil, with equal amounts soaking into my own hands.

   So if you have help, one person mixes and dumps and the other does the rest.  Do not overwork the concrete---just like biscuits, you want lots of air bubbles in there so it can expand and contract without cracking.

Oh and two yards in a day is about the limit for one person, three for two people.  A 60# sack is about 1/2 cubic foot so you need 54 for a yard.  90's are 3/4 so you need about 40.  A yard of sand, yard of gravel and 14 bags of cement yields 2 yards of concrete (seems like it should be more but there are lots of voids that get filled)

Thanks go to guy!   

Would just imagine I am sentenced to the bags of premix.  That too is a world unto itself. High strength - then you got your basic and then you got your fast setting and then to got your........     

OK, now we're getting in the weeds a bit more.  I've mixed refractory cement for fireplaces, waterproof concrete, used additives in countertops like poly fibers to prevent tiny cracks, used colors....
  When you order concrete delivered they should ask how many 'sack' mix you want.  They are basically asking how many sacks of cement will go into each yard of concrete.  Premix stuff is around a 5 1/2 sack mix and gives you 3,000 psi concrete---good enough for most of the work here.  Less cement will make weaker concrete, as will too much water.  More water makes it more workable; so does more cement, and it will be stronger.  (If you're doing fine work like a countertop you can add a water reducing agent that will increase workability without reducing strength)
   If I'm making my own concrete I buy 14 of the 90.4 sacks of plastic cement (more easily worked than portland) to match the yard of gravel and yard of sand.
   When I'm doing flatwork with premix, I think the premix is a little short on cement so I'll pick up a sack of plastic cement and sweeten the mix with some.  You end up with better concrete.  For formwork like this project I didn't bother.
    I'm  messing around with fiberoptics now

OK back to the real world.....Finally got the slipform foundation done.  This may be the only 'tiny house' with a basement.  Finally get to the fun stuff like framing.  I'd prefer to work with wood instead of concrete any day.






   I think I'll pour the vinyl floor asnd seal the walls with UGL after I get the floor above done, otherwise the oaks will leave their marks in leaves, pollen tassels, and acorns

Graywater system is done.  I picked a spot about 30' away, that got constant sun in a more or less southern exposure. 


  I had some infiltrators left over.  They probably didn't need to go quite this deep but it's a steep slope and I don't want water bubbling back out anywhere.  For the record I didn't do any sort of calculations or soil studies.  If it fails to absorb all the laundry water, I'll just expand it.  There's a lint trap upstream.  I can imagine how lint would choke up a system pretty fast...

   Weed cloth over the infiltrators to keep roots out over time.  It might serve to keep the louvers clear too.


    The white pipe is the french drain under the slab.  I wanted any water that gets under to drain away past the graywater system.  I'll direct raingutters away too, but once the soil re-solidifies I don't think much surface runoff will get down into the chambers

     Tapping in to the water main went off without a hitch.  I have to run the electric next, then I can bury the whole thing

    Nothing interesting about this other than forward progress.  Not pictured are the 100,000 little black gnats that the thunderstorms stirred up.

     

  

Sure don't like gnats.  One thing we really like about NM is the absence of bothersome flying insects.