Some honest talk about mobiles.

[hhbartlett]

I know this forum is mostly about building cabins. But it's also about building and establishing your place in the country, sometimes off grid. It's about creating low cost homesteading. Some of us want to pay cash and not have debt. So I wanted to bring this up as I'm still in planning, but may have to make a move sooner than expected.

Have you ever considered a used mobile home to start your homestead with? Maybe as a starting point, something habitable, and then added onto. I have seen some transformations that make them unrecognisable as a MH when done.

The thing is, there are some pretty great deals on used mobile homes that "must be moved" (I'm mostly talking about single-wides). I have seen some pretty decent ones for under $10k. I've seen some that admittedly need some work, but can be had for a couple of thousand or even free in some cases. Moving it, of course, is a different story, seems to be about $3k minimum. The other thing is that they don't fall under the same category as a stick built house for taxes or foundation codes.

Ya, I know it's not the same as building your own cabin. I know lots of people live in them while they build their dream cabin. However, from what I've seen here, most cabins don't have any more square footage than a single wide 14' x 64' mobile. Undoubtedly the cabins here are better built in almost every aspect, but if you were in a hurry and had limited funds, would you consider a mobile home as an alternative to get started?

[Squirl]

I looked at a few in the beginning of the process.

The first reason I shy away is they are depreciating assets.  Why pay the money for something I won't get back out and I don't want to keep. For me the setup costs would outweigh the benefits.

Many are poorly constructed.
Many people I found selling them tended to be less than honest, they just wanted to get rid of them.  They were in horrible condition.  People stated "It only needs X." While it really needed X,Y, and Z, and was about to need A, B, C, and D.  So I would be spending my time and money working on a something that was probably destined for a scrap heap when I was done with it.

Many localities had restrictions on them too.

I built a "shed" for storage with a loft and a porta potty before my build.  I came to the conclusion I would get a camper to stay in if needed.  Easier to move and sell.

[hpinson]

Most every house in my area has a mobile home core, that has over the years, been greatly added to.  More often than not, you can't tell a particular structure started as a mobile hom, until you get up close. Very organic growth.  Being in-process of pulling down a mobile home, the construction quality is not so impressive. Mainly stapled 2x4's.  Many older ones are fire traps-- maybe some later models are better.

Saw this a while back-- interesting video on a mobile home remodel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QDLDD3GIew

[Alan Gage]

Being in-process of pulling down a mobile home, the construction quality is not so impressive. Mainly stapled 2x4's.

2x4s, that's impressive. I tore mine down piece by piece before starting my build and I think a 2x3 was the biggest piece of lumber I found, including the roof "trusses."

Alan

[JRR]

Been there, did that.  A low priced, used trailer can be considered "bare coverings", a small step up from a tent or a yurt... but cheap living all the same.  I would consider it like paying "up front" for a period of limited housing ... nothing else.  Not to be used later as a nucleus for a grander building plan ... just something to be used for a few years and passed on, or re-cycled.  True, they are not well built, but they are small enough so that the energy costs can still be rather low.

Watch for the wind!

[hpinson]

Alan, you are right... Lots of 2x3 and 1x3 for "trusses".  Personally, i'd rather go with a little trailer, in good shape, as temporary housing, or even a quality wall tent.  We do a lot of our living outdoors while building and a priority this summer is to build a gazebo for shelter from sun / rain / hail. That's much more pleasant than living inside an old dark smelly mobile. Side note is much of the land we looked at had restrictions on placement of a mobile home, or even a travel trailer-- especially this subdivisions.   Probably for good reason. We have subdivisions here where the old mobiles are abandoned and are an absolute blight, bringing everyones property value, and more importantly enjoyment, down.

There is very little inside my mobile that is worth recycling. Maybe the frame.

[Alan Gage]

Side note is much of the land we looked at had restrictions on placement of a mobile home, or even a travel trailer-- especially this subdivisions.   Probably for good reason. We have subdivisions here where the old mobiles are abandoned and are an absolute blight, bringing everyones property value, and more importantly enjoyment, down.

I was seriously looking for land a couple years ago in the SW NM/SE AZ area and remember coming across that. I believe AZ had less restrictions on mobile homes/travel trailers than NM did.

Alan

[hhbartlett]

Interesting. My idea (called plan "b") was to pour a slab large enough for a mobile and an addition, park a used mobile there, build the addition, place trusses across the whole works and a metal roof, and then siding in the form of either cedar shingles (cheap in my area) or vinyl siding, and a 2x6 insulated perimeter wall for skirting. Depending on the trailer, possibly also new windows and/or doors. The reason was for speed and mostly cost savings.

However, you've all got me thinking maybe I wouldn't save as much as I'd think, especially if I'm already pouring a slab, adding new windows, doors, siding, trusses, roof, and probably a few interior improvements. After spending $5k to $10k for the trailer, plus a $3k to $5k moving costs, maybe I'm not saving anything.

Anyone have any thoughts / experience with that analysis? Do you save any money with a used mobile home as the "core", or not really?

Here's the thing. I have a 33' camper on the site now. It's far from new but it's shelter. However, this is not some weekend camp for us; it's going to be our permanent home. My fear was that the house wouldn't be done by fall (haven't started it yet), we'd still be in the camper in November and panic and misery would ensue (we also have 2 girls & a dog & cat). By having a mobile there and set up, even if the rest wasn't done, we're not still camping out come November.

But maybe it's better to sell the camper now (used campers are easy to sell this time of year), get a used mobile home, and set that up as our temporary house. And not in the spot where we're building. Decisions, decisions. It's all so confusing.

[hhbartlett]

I was seriously looking for land a couple years ago in the SW NM/SE AZ area and remember coming across that. I believe AZ had less restrictions on mobile homes/travel trailers than NM did.

Alan

This isn't an issue where we are; we're in the woods pretty far. No other houses around.

[archimedes]

As a finance guy I would never invest in a home that I thought would depreciate.  Therefore no, I would never consider a mobile home.  It's a depreciating asset that is difficult to dispose of.

The thing is, there are some pretty great deals on used mobile homes that "must be moved" (I'm mostly talking about single-wides).

The reason for this is that the GSE's,  like Fannie Mae,  will no longer finance single wides.  Therefore,  it is very difficult,  if not impossible,  to finance a single wide.  Since most people who would be willing to live in a single wide are lower income people,  removing the ability to finance them destroys the market for them.  Hence the buyers market in single wides.

Even if you are not planning to finance the purchase for yours,  the person you will ultimately want to sell it to may need financing and be unable to obtain it.

[hhbartlett]

As a finance guy I would never invest in a home that I thought would depreciate.  Therefore no, I would never consider a mobile home.  It's a depreciating asset that is difficult to dispose of.

The reason for this is that the GSA's,  like Fannie Mae,  will no longer finance single wides.  Therefore,  it is very difficult,  if not impossible,  to finance a single wide.  Since most people who would be willing to live in a single wide are lower income people,  removing the ability to finance them destroys the market for them.  Hence the buyers market in single wides.

Even if you are not planning on finance the purchase for yours,  the person you will ultimately want to sell it to may need financing and be unable to obtain it.

It's a little different here in Canada. There are very few mobiles that aren't "single wides", and they start at north of $80k new, some are well over $100k. However, from what I understand, financing them is a different story than a regular house regardless. The interest rate is higher for one thing. The determining factor is whether or not it's on "leased land" (trailer park), and if it's permanently connected to a foundation. Even so, financing them is still quite possible as it happens all the time. The older ones, not so much. That is why there are such great deals on them.

Sometimes you can get pretty good deals on reposessed ones as well. Here is a great example, I don't think it's very old:
http://www.realtor.ca/propertyDetails.aspx?propertyId=11834280&PidKey=2113625160
I'd probably offer considerable less than asking price for this one, might get it for $6k to $9k. MHs around here made in the last 20 years or so are made with at least 2x4, and lately 2x6 construction believe it or not (for insulation purposes I think).

In my case, I'm not financing anything. Part of the whole point of this exercise for us is no debt; we're selling our house in town and taking the proceeds to pay cash for everything. Already own the land. Also, I don't care about "assets", "depreciation", or other stuff like that anymore. Part of the problem with things nowadays is that people started looking at their homes as ATMs, things to "leverage", and started playing games with them, moving around when it was "strategically advantageous" to do so without regard for actual quality of life. I'm over all that. This is my last move, it's about being debt free, living outdoors more, being healthy, pursuing creative interests, and leaving the constant worries about finances behind. It's about showing my kids there is more to life than chasing dollars forever, and that it's mostly an illusion anyway.

So my main question is, would a trailer like the above link speed things up, and save money, and give a reasonable base to build from or is it a waste of money because building from scratch would be just as cheap. From scratch means more flexible design options for sure, but it sure is tempting to be able to pick up something like the above, plop it in place and go from there.

[hhbartlett]

As a finance guy I would never invest in a home that I thought would depreciate.  Therefore no, I would never consider a mobile home.  It's a depreciating asset that is difficult to dispose of.

The reason for this is that the GSA's,  like Fannie Mae,  will no longer finance single wides.  Therefore,  it is very difficult,  if not impossible,  to finance a single wide.  Since most people who would be willing to live in a single wide are lower income people,  removing the ability to finance them destroys the market for them.  Hence the buyers market in single wides.

Even if you are not planning to finance the purchase for yours,  the person you will ultimately want to sell it to may need financing and be unable to obtain it.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood your statement. Yes, I'd agree that getting rid of an old mobile would not be easy. Hence why they're so cheap. That would be my hesitation to get one for a temporary house; probably better to rent an apartment close by (well, 15 minute drive in my case would be the closest). My previous comment was more geared towards not selling it, but adding on, and using it as the "core" to get started.

[Squirl]

I was thinking about your plan B.  I see your fear.  I don't know rents in your area, but in rural northern areas, you can usually rent a small two bedroom on a 6 month lease for around $500 a month for a total of around $3,000.  That would be a worst case scenario for you and it would still be cheaper than the moving costs alone of the mobile home, let alone any disposal/repair time and costs.  As you noted newer ones run 80-100K, many in your price range, under 10K, will be closer to the end of their useful life.

Will you be working full time when you build?  If not, I believe you are underestimating your ability to get dried in.  I worked just weekends from August to November and was able to build a full perimeter block foundation with no masonry experience.  I even had to deal with a few Hurricanes which slowed me up.  If I would have spent an extra $1000 on wood forms for the foundation, I could have poured it and been done by September.  Framing to get dried in goes a lot faster too.

There also may be a cultural disconnect. As far as home values, the thought is not an abstract one in a financial sense.  It will usually be the largest asset in a person's life.  The ability to borrow against or sell it may be needed to cover some other type of catastrophic cost, such as health care.  It could be the difference of life or death of a loved one or child.  My understanding is Canada has a better social safety net so you may not have to worry about those things.

[Alan Gage]

I guess it would be a personal decision. When I was looking for a place to buy I found the perfect place with an old trailer on it. The previous owners had built exterior walls around 3 of the 4 sides and put a gable roof over it, from the road it looked like a long ranch house. The trailer was in decent shape for its age but run down, inside and out. I spent a few thousand to make it livable: a few new (used) windows, framed up and insulated stud walls in the living room, insulated the attic, new water heater and plumbing, and put in a wood stove.

It was hard to know where to draw the line. I thought about giving it a whole makeover inside and out but decided against it. No matter what I did to the house it would never be more than a trailer house under it all, with all the problems that go along with that. I'm happy with the money I put into it though as I was able to live in in for three years before tearing it down to build a new place last spring. It wasn't a particularly pleasant place to live. Really hot in the summer and REALLY cold and drafty in the winter. Constant fear (and reality) of pipes freezing and just the cheapness of an old trailer.

Not that it can't be done and that it isn't a good idea for some, but there are certainly some drawbacks. Building a house is a big undertaking and a labor of love. You want to love the finished product. For me there's no way that could include a trailer house shell. A cabin would be one thing but this sounds like you're planning on a full time, long term, residence. I wouldn't mess around with that. Build something that will last.

A quote from Joe at Building Science that I like:

I think buildings should last a long time. Over my half century and then some of existence on this blue spinning celestial ball, I have learned, mostly the hard way, that in order for buildings to last a long time, people have to take care of them. Now, in order for people to take care of them, people have to want to take care of them. And guess what? People don't take care of ugly things. Ugliness is not sustainable. People need to want to live in a building and work in a building. Only then will they take care of it. That is why beautiful buildings are important. That is why architecture is important.

A link to the whole article (which doesn't really have anything to do with this thread): http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-052-seeing-red-over-green-roofs/?searchterm=beautiful%20buildings%20last

Alan

[hhbartlett]

I was thinking about your plan B.  I see your fear.  I don't know rents in your area, but in rural northern areas, you can usually rent a small two bedroom on a 6 month lease for around $500 a month for a total of around $3,000.  That would be a worst case scenario for you and it would still be cheaper than the moving costs alone of the mobile home, let alone any disposal/repair time and costs.  As you noted newer ones run 80-100K, many in your price range, under 10K, will be closer to the end of their useful life.

Will you be working full time when you build?  If not, I believe you are underestimating your ability to get dried in.  I worked just weekends from August to November and was able to build a full perimeter block foundation with no masonry experience.  I even had to deal with a few Hurricanes which slowed me up.  If I would have spent an extra $1000 on wood forms for the foundation, I could have poured it and been done by September.  Framing to get dried in goes a lot faster too.

There also may be a cultural disconnect. As far as home values, the thought is not an abstract one in a financial sense.  It will usually be the largest asset in a person's life.  The ability to borrow against or sell it may be needed to cover some other type of catastrophic cost, such as health care.  It could be the difference of life or death of a loved one or child.  My understanding is Canada has a better social safety net so you may not have to worry about those things.

I'm self-employed, and have purposely wound down alot of work activities in anticipation of this big change we're about to make. My plan was to be able to work full time or nearly full time on the house, and in fact take time off of my other work as much for therapeutic reasons - I just need a change for a while (too much sitting down at a computer the last few years). So when I get going, I'll have all kinds of time available.

Of course, there's a finite amount of money to work with as well, which was another concern. Kind of why I'm asking these questions, would I save anything with a used trailer or not. If I'm building from scratch, it won't be high end finishes or anything, and I plan to use Kijiji (Craigslist for Canadians) and Habitat for Humanity ReStore for as much as I can. Saw a beautiful set of cupboards, complete with counter, island, sink, taps, the works for $1200 just because someone wanted a "new" kitchen. So, I'm not sure how far ahead of the game a used mobile would put me. Maybe not at all.

It would be nice to be able to look at a plan and say it will cost $x, but I know that's never realistic. I'd love to be living inside a new cabin for $30k to $35k, with enough room for 2 kids, us, a dog and an occasional visitor (not counting land, well, septic as I already have all that). I'm just not experienced enough to be able to say that with confidence.

As far as health care catastrophes go, we don't worry about that in Canada, thankfully. I just went through a major heart attack last year myself. The biggest cost was loss of time for work, being self-employed. And, that problem would be mitigated by keeping regular bills as low as possible, which is part of what I'm trying to accomplish...

[hhbartlett]

...

A quote from Joe at Building Science that I like:

I think buildings should last a long time. Over my half century and then some of existence on this blue spinning celestial ball, I have learned, mostly the hard way, that in order for buildings to last a long time, people have to take care of them. Now, in order for people to take care of them, people have to want to take care of them. And guess what? People don't take care of ugly things. Ugliness is not sustainable. People need to want to live in a building and work in a building. Only then will they take care of it. That is why beautiful buildings are important. That is why architecture is important.

A link to the whole article (which doesn't really have anything to do with this thread): http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-052-seeing-red-over-green-roofs/?searchterm=beautiful%20buildings%20last

Alan

Actually, I think it does have alot to do with this thread, and it's why I'm asking these questions. You've all been very helpful. See, part of my problem is also that I've never lived in a mobile home, so maybe they suck more than I think they do. I have bought, lived in fixed up and sold a couple of pretty crappy houses though. A trailer would have been a major step up from our last house, built 90+ years ago and not well built in the first place (old mining company house), and your saying certainly applied to it.

[Squirl]

Think about how hard it is to fix things that weren't done right in the first place, or just fixing and renovating old houses.  I have done a few myself.  Starting from scratch and doing it right is so much easier and faster.  I also have had the problem with old houses that when I start to fix something, something else breaks.  A used old trailer will probably have many of the same problems.  The few I looked at had a lot of rotting and water damage (something those South westerners probably aren't going to have  )

If you go with the most basic and standard equipment 35K is very reasonable for a finished product.  I went with 600 sq. ft. and I have about $4K into the foundation even with the equipment rental.  I expect another 8-10K to get dried in.  I am going with a single story because I don't want to deal with stairs, but if I added a second story I would almost double the square footage and not have add a single penny for the foundation or roof.

Alan's build thread is a pretty good example.  He showed some of the time and effort it took to demolish and remove his old trailer.

[hhbartlett]

Yep, I guess it all depends on the design.

What do you all think of this?
http://newbrunswick.kijiji.ca/c-real-estate-other-Home-Camp-Cottage-Garage-Building-For-Sale-W0QQAdIdZ372542854

It's sort of a compromise between the two 

Not saying I'd do that, but does that sound like a reasonable price for that building? Could I build that new for similar cost? Or is that a deal?

[hhbartlett]

Think about how hard it is to fix things that weren't done right in the first place, or just fixing and renovating old houses.  I have done a few myself.  Starting from scratch and doing it right is so much easier and faster.

Yup, I know that one. It's probably true. My only experience is in the former, so maybe it would be a pleasure to build new. I know some projects, like the deck I built last year from new, were nice when you have all the right tools and new stuff to work with.

Alan's build thread is a pretty good example.  He showed some of the time and effort it took to demolish and remove his old trailer.

The video was funny of him pulling it down! We did a similar thing to an old shed once, except I used my old Hyundai 

[Squirl]

You could probably buy the materials as close to that price.  Generally the farther away from square, the less efficient the materials to square footage gets.
Down and dirty estimates in U.S. dollars.
60 ft long 2x10's 16" O/C = $850
¾ in. OSB flooring 960 sq. ft. = $550
152 ln ft walls 2x6 24" O/C = $500
3/4 OSB sheathing 1216 sq. ft. walls = $650
Trusses (complete guess) $50 each 24" O/C = 1500
¾ OSB roof sheathing 1200 sq. ft. = $650
Shingles = $1200
Everything else for the roof $1000.
So a quick and dirty estimate of 7-9K for the materials, without including the labor.

[Yankeesouth]

Yep....I did.  Here is why in my case.  If one had a mobile home on a lot/place/ piece of land/ etc.  that is the way it was recorded for "the man."   People often built around them and had a 3000sqf place that still read mobile home for "the man."  Other reasons considered....I looked at property that folks could care less about....and putting in a mobile home allowed me to add on as needed.    Put it this way....depending on where you do a real estate search and how you word it a mobile home can easily come up as a : hunting cabin: fishing camp: camp in woods: etc....   If the price works and it fits "your" needs I say go for it.  I think a lot of people have pissed away 3-5K in much worse ways.  I know this isn't going to help your decision, but there are so many factors to consider it all depends on what you want to do with it and what financial state you are in.  It could be an outstanding investment and decision or a complete cluster???.  Which ever way you I wish you the best!

[hhbartlett]

Yep....I did.  Here is why in my case.  If one had a mobile home on a lot/place/ piece of land/ etc.  that is the way it was recorded for "the man."   People often built around them and had a 3000sqf place that still read mobile home for "the man."  Other reasons considered....I looked at property that folks could care less about....and putting in a mobile home allowed me to add on as needed.    Put it this way....depending on where you do a real estate search and how you word it a mobile home can easily come up as a : hunting cabin: fishing camp: camp in woods: etc....   If the price works and it fits "your" needs I say go for it.  I think a lot of people have pissed away 3-5K in much worse ways.  I know this isn't going to help your decision, but there are so many factors to consider it all depends on what you want to do with it and what financial state you are in.  It could be an outstanding investment and decision or a complete cluster???.  Which ever way you I wish you the best!

Yep, that's a consideration too. Where I am, a mobile means property taxes are on the land only, unless it's on a permanent foundation. That means $300 a year instead of $1300 or more. It's also a $25 permit and that's it, no inspections. An addition under 600 square feet is just another $25 permit, again no inspections.

[Alan Gage]

It would be nice to be able to look at a plan and say it will cost $x, but I know that's never realistic. I'd love to be living inside a new cabin for $30k to $35k, with enough room for 2 kids, us, a dog and an occasional visitor (not counting land, well, septic as I already have all that). I'm just not experienced enough to be able to say that with confidence.

I think in another thread I told you I thought I had about $60k in my build. Well the other day I sat down and did a rough running total and I think I'm actually pretty close to $80k, and I'm still not quite done (though the big expenses are done with). I thought I'd easily be able to build it for $40k when I started. I just didn't realize, having never done anything like this before, how much time and money it took. Looking back I still have no idea where all that money went. When you're in the planning stage you think, "I'll have xxxx in the foundation, framing, sheathing, roofing, trusses, flooring, siding." Those are pretty easy to get rough prices on. Then you figure you'll have another xxxx in electrical, plumbing, HVAC, sheetrock. And just for good measure you toss in another xxxx for incidental stuff not covered above. You figure that ought to get you pretty close. But it doesn't, or at least it didn't for me. There are just so many things (large and small) that you don't even know you're going to need and they really add up, and they never stop coming. I used to think it was nuts what people paid to have a new house built. Now I completely understand why it costs so much once you add in the labor component.

Ok, so out of that roughly $80k I spent $4500 for septic and around $1000 to have the old slab that was under the trailer broke up and hauled away. Also used that account to pay some regular monthly household bills, maybe another $2500 there. Some appliances and other misc. stuff would come in around $2500. So that leaves about $70k for the house and tools.

Tools:
Miter saw and stand
Table saw (for cabinets)
Portable planer (for cabinets)
nailers (framing, finish, brad)
saw blades
sawzall
impact driver
hammer drill
laser level

Those are the bigger ones  I can think of. There are countless smaller ones I can't think of that probably added up to a fair amount.

The house is super insulated so there was some extra expense there, but probably not a lot. The extra framing lumber was almost all salvaged from the old house, and framing lumber is cheap. Insulation cost was extra but insulation is cheap too.  Windows were vinyl, nothing fancy but not junk.

Outside labor:

I paid around $500 to have the footings dug, $3000 to the concrete guys for laying a couple courses of block and being in charge of the slab pour (wanted a real nice finish since it's the finished floor), and around $800 to the electricians to trench in power from the pole, inspect my work, and call in the inspector.

Certainly a house can be built cheaper than mine but it's just plain expensive no matter how you cut it. And looking back I can't think of a single thing I regret spending too much money on. There are things I wish I had spent more on though.

Anyway, not trying to scare you or anything. Just thought I'd throw out some numbers.

Alan

[hhbartlett]

Thanks so much, Alan. I sort of know what you're saying about money disappearing after renovating the house we have now. Somehow $25k turned into $40k, and I'm still not quite sure why. I can point to things like flooring and say it cost $x, cupboards were $y, etc. but there's always other stuff. Sometimes it is tools you didn't think you would need (good part is I own all kinds of them now).

And that's why I'm as concerned about it as I am. When I say I have a finite amount of money to work with, I mean it. There's no line of credit to go to, no credit cards, nor do I want there to be. Been there, done that, not going back. This is totally being financed by selling our current house. From past experience, I know I need a cushion because "stuff happens". That's why I say $30k to $35k; it does not have to be totally complete, but it does need to be habitable in the winter for this amount of money. I have more to work with for the "stuff happens" factor, but the above figures are what I'm comfortable spending and budgeting for.

Ten years ago, after living in the city most of my life, my wife and I bought our first house. We didn't have much money at all, but were able to borrow $10,000 (from father-in-law). Neither of us were employed; we had a 1 year old and my wife was staying home with her, the company I had been working for closed. We found a repossessed old 3 bedroom, 2 storey 24' x 20' house in a rural place close to where my wife grew up; the price was $27k, then  dropped to $17k, then unbelievably dropped to $10k. Nobody wanted to touch this place; it was full of garbage and rumoured to be full of rats. We offered $4k and they took it. People thought we were nuts. But we rolled up our sleeves, cleaned out 10 truckloads of garbage, tore down the old garage, I figured out plumbing and wells and got that going, and we moved in. It had 2 furnaces, an oil and a wood. I took out the oil furnace with a shovel mostly after it disintegrated into a pile of rust, and we used wood heat alone. We spent 3 years there and around $12,000 fixing it up with new wiring and a metal roof, a few other minor things. I learned quickly that stuff costs way more than you think it will, and we like to refer to that place as our "practice house".  Good times. By the way, there were no rats any more when we had the place.

My point is, if I had attempted to build back then, I know it would have been way way more money and we would have been in trouble. Even though that house was crappy in almost every way, it gave us a "core" to work with which was helpful. If I had a larger cushion of money, I'd be more comfortable with a "from scratch" build, but it's looking more and more like I'll realistically save a bunch of money and time starting with something else. If this were a weekend cabin, it would be a different story.

Having said all that, I've been following EaglesSJ thread which is totally inspiring. I think he said he's in the low 30's now? Incredible. I like A frames myself, my family had one as a cottage when we were kids, it was a blast, but I understand the shortcomings of them. And I need a place where my 2 younger girls can have their own rooms, plus another room for guests like older daughter and grandson, plus us, etc so I'm thinking a bit more square footage than what you can realistically get from an A frame.

What to do, what to do. 

[flyingvan]

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/manufactured-housing-comparison-site-built-homes-8778.html
http://www.consumersunion.org/other/mh/brochure.htm

   Two great articles to read....A friend has made an entire business out of retrofitting prefabs with a concrete foundation.  I don't know if it's true nationally, but around here you can't mortgage a mobile home on piers but you can if it sits on concrete.  So if you do go this route, consider pouring a good pad for it to sit on