Questions before I begin building

[KyGirl]

Hello everyone.  I ordered the Little House plans last year and plan on building a 14X28, single story (no sleeping loft) house for myself.  I will be doing it a little at a time and hope to complete it in a year. I have to buy materials a little at a time as I am very low income and have found it impossible to get a loan.  I already own property here in Eastern Kentucky.  I had a moble home on the lot but it was very old and time and lack of funds to repair it took its toll.  After having an electrical fire, I moved in with my Dad 4 years ago while I tried to obtain financing to buy a place.  No luck there so my sister suggested that I consider building my own place.  Most of the people in my rural area go that route.  My Dad's home started out as a 4 room cabin with a rock foundation built by my great, great grandfather from lumber he cut himself.  Each generation has added on until it has become a two story, 5 bedroom house.  Family members have said they would help with the work, Dad has all the tools, and I am willing to work hard to get it done.  I have no debt after working many years to pay everything off and would like to keep it that way.  I am a pay cash for everything kind of person now. 

I actually started on the foundation last fall but bad weather and ill health prevented much from getting done.  I was going to use cement block for the piers but I am rethinking that.  My brother used his tractor and dug a 30 foot by 3 feet deep, by 2 foot wide trench where my first row of piers are going.  He said that would  be easier than digging individual holes.   The frost depth here is 18 inches so that was kinda overkill.  We have been having a lot of rain here and it is a wet area anyway.  My soil is great for foundations. It met all the requirements mentioned in the Little House plans.  I even took a handful out of the bottom of the trench, put it in a glass jar, marked the level on the jar, froze it and there was no expansion. I then thawed the dirt, added a little water, refroze it and no expansion.  Now for my questions. I am wondering if it wouldn't be easier to fill the trench with about 2 feet of crushed rock, pack that down and level it. Then build the peirs with block or use sono tubes.  My dad thinks I should have concrete poured level with the top of the ground and then  build the piers with block.  I think that would be way too expensive.  What do you guys think?  I don't want any wood in contact with the ground because wood rots fast here and we have a bad termite problem.  I should add that I want at least a 36 inch high crawl space under the house to make it easier to plumb.  I was constantly crawling under my mobile home to repair water leaks and duct work and it was a pain because it was low to the ground.

  Now a roof question. I like the modern look of a shed roof but wonder how it would look on such a long, narrow building. Should I stick with a low slope gable roof.  I don't plan on a sleeping loft becuase I hate stairs (bad knees and a reattached, reconstructed lower right leg after a bad accident). I plan on building a 10X14 little house as a guest room/apartment for my son after I build my own place and putting a shed roof on it because it looks easier to do.

Heating question.  I will be using electric heat but don't know what type of system.  I don't want duct work under the house because animals always seem to find a way to tear them down.  Plus, I don't like stepping on vent grates.  Dad suggested baseboard heaters or wall mount heaters but I want the most cost effective solution.  Want to avoid big heating bills if I can.  I plan on well insulating and using 2x6 studs instead of 2x4. I also need some type of backup heat because our electric is always going off. The joys of living in a rural area. I was thinking a small coal or wood stove vented through the wall for easier cleaning.  Dad thinks I should just buy a kerosene heater for such emergencies. I don't like the fumes.  What are your ideas on the matter?

Looking forward to getting started and hearing all your suggestions.

[dug]

As for the footings, I would think that if you pour a continuous perimeter one you might as well just build up a stem wall. It would be a tight foundation and you wouldn't have to have built up, supporting beams.

Piers are nice because you can avoid the expense and work involved with all the extra concrete. In your present situation, if you want to go with piers, I would form a footer for each pier in the bottom of the trench, and fill a sono tube (or similar) either to beam height or above grade with embedded bracket to hold post.

The roof is very much personal preference. Shed roof is simple and inexpensive to build, could look nice as sort of pueblo style?

From the research I've done on electric heaters they all are 100% efficient. That is, none of them will really give you more heat for less money. I think it is more of a matter of placement. Baseboard heaters should work well, I would think.

Disclaimer; All advice is worth no more than the price paid.

[OlJarhead]

Cost vs. convenience vs. desire

What do you want?  You could put drain rock in the trenches, then pavers, then piers and finally posts to a post an beam foundation.  Probably the cheapest way and the piers are supposed to be below frost level (mine aren't but I am not worried about frost heave).

That's probably the cheapest way to go except that you don't really want wood touching ground even if it is treated.

Next would be drain rock, backfill except where you place tubes to pour concrete into (make sure they are level and plumb and square etc) with the concrete coming out of the trench (thus clearing the ground before your treated post or beam is secured to them).

The most expensive would be to fill those with concrete and make them into 'footings'.

As for the roof, a shed roof would be cheaper and easier to make then a pitched roof and they seem to look fine on a 14x24.

For heat, I dislike electric baseboards for so many reasons!  Besides the expense and lack of efficiency (sure they kick out the heat they make but it costs you through the nose and they suck for whole house heating) they only work as long as the power is available.

Small heat pump option is more expensive probably, but cheaper in the long run and would provide both heat and AC -- very small unit I'm sure -- however still all electric and without a generator to support it when the power goes out you get cold.

If wood is an option for you, then wood plus electric is ideal   You can heat the house with the electric and augment it with wood when you feel like it (or when you need to lower the electric bill).....but that's me

Natural gas and propane also offer options (propane fireplaces work too).

So consider the heat option pretty carefully giving consideration to things like the possible sky rocketing electric bill (President Obama noted that "under my cap-and-trade plan, electricity prices would necessarily skyrocket") -- so let's just say that means doubling the bill every month.  You might not want to be tied to electricity SPECIALLY if you get your electricity from Coal Fired plants.

[MushCreek]

Welcome to the forum! You'll get lots of good advice here. My only advice at this point would be to make sure you allow for lots of good insulation, and make sure the house is good and tight. It makes such a huge difference when it comes to heating if the house can hold the heat you've got. Orienting the house so the windows can get some passive solar heat will make a big difference as well. There's sometimes a tendency when building 'quick 'n dirty' to skimp on the insulation, caulking, and weather-proofing, and then you pay for it over and over trying to keep Old Man Winter out.

[archimedes]

(President Obama noted that "under my cap-and-trade plan, electricity prices would necessarily skyrocket") -- so let's just say that means doubling the bill every month. 

Can you tell us where you pulled that quote from?  Any attribution would be appreciated, thanks.

[poppy]

KyGirl, you have some good family history there.

Sounds like you have a good plan overall.

Keep in mind that anything that is wet will expand when it freezes because water expands when frozen.  That's why the foundation bottom either has to be below frost line or kept dry.

I am not qualified to tell you the best way to build up from that 3' trench, but it is too deep as you said.  I would think that either raising the bottom of the trench with compacted fill dirt or gravel would make more sense than to pour long concrete piers.

Also a 3' crawl space seems to be overkill.  A couple of feet should be enough and you can get there by the combination of concrete pier height and beam height.

[MountainDon]

Can you tell us where you pulled that quote from?  Any attribution would be appreciated, thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4

[archimedes]

Can you tell us where you pulled that quote from?  Any attribution would be appreciated, thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4

Thanks, one more reason I'm opposed to Cap and Trade.  (sorry for the hijack)

[MountainDon]

I was also thinking that a three foot tall crawlspace might be more than required. If you build the cabin right you should not be having to spend much time underneath as you did with the mobile home.


While three feet is deeper than you need for a perimeter foundation there are folks who need to use a 5 foot deep trench so it is not undoable. In your case three feet might be overkill. However, I might tend to leave that one that deep and go with it, rather than risk filling it in and not packing it properly. I've seen an area here in NM where a contractor built homes on improperly filled and packed ground. It only took a few years for several of the houses to develop serious foundation cracks. Serious to the point of it being more expedient to tear down and start all over again.

[MountainDon]

A 14 x 28 is small enough to not really need much in the way of heat. In fact with a wood stove it is easy to overheat. Wood stoves take up floor space and may be a factor as well. Wood stoves also require fire starting, wood tending, ash clean out, chimney maintenance, cutting, splitting and stacking firewood. Don't get me wrong, I love my VC Aspen wood stove. But it is more work that setting the thermostat on the propane wall heater.

A direct vent propane or natural gas (where available) wall heater makes a nice sensible low maintenance heater. Some can be operated without AC power. Some can not. We have one from Northern Tool that can maintain the 15.75 x 30 cabin temperature without the need for a wood fire. But we use the propane heater mainly to help raise the temperature quickly when we return after a prolonged absence. It's also handy on those mornings when you need just a little warm up and you know that a wood fire will overheat the cabin.

IF we were on grid I'd likely have looked at electric heaters, probably a few baseboard heaters. But I'd be wary of power outages and future price rises.


A roof built as a shed instead of a gable will require larger section rafters. You might also have more design problems getting enough slope if you need to handle any potential snow loads. Insulating the ceiling may be more difficult with a low pitch shed roof... depends.

[Don_P]

There has been a bit of misconception about gravel filled trenches in the last couple of days. I have a two story timberframe atop a full basement on 3'x3' gravel filled trenches we built about 5 miles from here. I was skeptical too, its worked fine. As the rep said, railroads run huge moving trains over gravel beds all the time. The foundation crew ran a plate compactor over it to settle it and then set up on top. The loads move through the gravel bed at a 45 degree angle widening your footprint. We set on the gravel bed with a 8" thick wall but it's effective footprint at the base of the gravel trench was bearing on an area of earth 3' wide.

[OlJarhead]

(President Obama noted that "under my cap-and-trade plan, electricity prices would necessarily skyrocket") -- so let's just say that means doubling the bill every month. 

Can you tell us where you pulled that quote from?  Any attribution would be appreciated, thanks.

Actually I've seen it a few times on the news but here is a youtube of it -- it's also ALL over the web (Google works well).  It was a San Fransisco Chronicle video I guess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4

But it's not the first amazing thing I've heard like this.

[OlJarhead]

Seems Don beat me to it.

[OlJarhead]

Can you tell us where you pulled that quote from?  Any attribution would be appreciated, thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4

Thanks, one more reason I'm opposed to Cap and Trade.  (sorry for the hijack)

Actually -- I think it's not a total hi-jack   We can save it!  It's about heating your home and I think you HAVE to consider the possible increase in electric rates when planning a new home.

If I were doing a 14x24/28 to live in permanently I'd do it JUST like my cabin

SOLAR POWER, OFF GRID

But solar power means baseboard heaters are out unless you've got beau-coupe dinero's

[MountainDon]

There has been a bit of misconception about gravel filled trenches in the last couple of days.

Would you say the key to success is proper installation, packing, of the gravel used in the trench?  That was what I was aiming at; doing the job right, not a slap dash, toss some dirt in and stomp on it some.

[Don_P]

Definitely, however there is much less art to consolidating gravel vs compacting dirt. If I remember right the crew placed the gravel in 6" lifts and ran the plate over it between.  Some redi mix plants also offer "flowable fill" basically a very lean concrete. The one I described was a Superior Walls foundation. Click on the builders guideline booklet for charts and methods, pretty neat stuff;
http://www.superiorwalls.com/tech_center/?cat=12

As an aside; 4 of their precast insulated walls with a radiant slab and truss roof would make pretty affordable construction.

[Squirl]

Electricity is already doubling in many areas.  In PA rates just skyrocketed because deregulation just kicked in (jumped 40% in a month).  I'm with don on DV Propane for full time heat.  Electric can be done, but I think the insulation costs would outweigh the cost of propane.

[glenn kangiser]

If you are in a good wood area, the price of heating  is impossible to beat if you can do it yourself. to the forum.

[archimedes]

As someone who heats his house with electric, I can tell you that the cost of electric heat installation (relatively cheap) is greatly out weighed by the cost of daily operation (very high).   I have an electric heat pump, which is great and energy efficient as long as the temps are above the low 40's F.  Below that, the electric meter spins like a top (especially this winter).  I'm in FL with relatively mild winters, it will probably much more costly for you to operate up north.

I've been looking into DV gas space heaters as a supplement to the heat pump.  Seems like a good idea.

[SardonicSmile]

Have you tried putting your land up as collateral and get a private loan for 10,000, just enough to dry It in?

[diyfrank]

There has been a bit of misconception about gravel filled trenches in the last couple of days.

Would you say the key to success is proper installation, packing, of the gravel used in the trench?  That was what I was aiming at; doing the job right, not a slap dash, toss some dirt in and stomp on it some.

You can fill with gravel and be pretty safe.  A 2" clean rock to fill an over-excavated area works well. The reason being, it requires little effort to compact and will never move once placed. I'd use chipped rock not round. Round can and does move. Filling with sand or a crush rock requires more effort to reach the proper density. Native soils even more.  95% compaction is normally whats required for structural fills like used in roads and buildings. Runways and freeways often require 100%, a tough number to reach. Forget using the small plate compactors you get at rental shops. They work well for putting a smooth crust on the surface but for compacting, even 6" lifts is asking a lot. The jumping jack foot tampers will get you to a 95  if done in 1' lifts. Problem is they cover a small area.
A hoe pack is best for smaller deeper fills and can easily handle 2'-3' lifts.  Vibrating drum roller are best for larger areas just because they can cover a lot of ground relatively quick. Moister content is everything when placing fills. Too dry and you will never reach a 95 and settling will occur. Too wet and it will move, even under foot traffic. As it drys it will settle very little.  Wet is better if you don't have your lifts tested. At least you will be left with something dense.

[SardonicSmile]

#57 rock is 97% compacted the minute you lay it on the ground.

[KyGirl]

Thanks for all the info.  I would love to do solar power but I live on the "dark side" of the hill.  The way my property is situated, I never get direct sun light in the fall and winter.  In the spring and summer I get sunlight for about half the day.  My yard has a lot of moss and mushrooms in it.  The property is very wet too.  It was a swamp before Dad filled it in for me to live on.  I used to constantly have to dig ditches around my mobile home to drain the water and there was a constant pond under it.  I was digging one day and actually dug up a fresh water clam still alive. I am not kidding.  I opened it and it was fresh.   I installed drainage and it finally dried up but I still have a lot of weep springs, mostly on the hill.  I turned the water hole where my mobile home used to be into a frog pond/water bowl for the dogs. LOL  They love to play in it. I plan to build my house further down the lot.  My lot is long and narrow.

Electric, wood, coal, or propane are the only heating options around here.  This areas entire economy is built on coal mining.  Mining is the only work around here that pays more than minimum wage.  If you don't work in the coal mines that leaves gas stations, grocery store,  or pizza mart work.  I live in one of the most impoverished areas of Eastern Kentucky. I really wish I had left when I was younger.  Many of my family have natural gas for heat but our gas company started raising every one's bill's to unbelievable prices.  They also won't sign up any new customer's.  They are also pulling meters like crazy.  My sister and niece's gas bills, which they use for heat only,  went to as much as $160 a month with 90 degree weather.  When they complained they were told that if they didn't pay their meters would be pulled and they would not be able to get them back.  For some reason the gas company doesn't want our business around here.  I intend to  well insulate and make everything tight.  I am going with 6" walls. If I go with the shed roof, I was going to use 2 X 10's so I could put a lot of insulation in.  I do have access to a lot of wood many of my neighbors heat with coal stoves.  It keeps our little valley full of smoke in the winter. 

I wanted a high crawl space because floor rot is a constant problem around here.  Dad has refloored this house many times.  The last time he took the floor up to replace the joist, he dug it out about 4 feet deep.  Replacing floors is a constant business around here.  We have a lot of land "creep" around here too.  It seems like the hills keep spreading out.  I had a dog lot on the hill and the front 5 foot high fence is completely buried now.  The hills do there best to overtake any flat land. 

I think I will put about 2' of crushed rock in and compact it then go with pouring sono tubes on top of concrete pads.  Most people around here only go down about 12 inches but the agricultural department said 18"  was the average frost level for this area.  It has been in the low 20's with a lot of single digit nights most of this winter with snow for weeks at a time after several winters of no snow to mention. There are many flat roofed and shed roof houses around here and I have never heard of one caving in from snow load.  Trees falling on them yes but snow and Ice, no. I have been putting up fence post today and only the top 3" of dirt was frozen.  People are already plowing gardens and putting out peas. 

I tried putting my property up for a loan 3 years ago.  I applied at the local bank, the USDA, and every rural development program in 4 counties. No luck.  Well, actually the USDA said they could help after 2 years and jumping through hoops for them. Then I got a letter saying that everything has been put on hold due to the bank crisis.  My only income is disability and after working only minimum wage jobs up until a reckless driver almost killed me and did kill herself, I don't receive a lot.  Banks around her don't like to lend money unless you don't need it.  Dad has tried to talk me into reapplying for a loan now that I have my debts taken care of but by the time I paid a loan payment, car insurance, utilities, and other living expenses, I could have nothing left each month.  I would rather do it a little at a time, paying cash as I go.  Even if it takes me two years to get it done, I would rest easier knowing I don't owe anybody for my home. 

[eddiescabin]

I'm continually impressed by people here that live in such conditions!  Sure, I've got quakes, fires, riots and kooks, but ice, swamp and a gas co. that doesn't want money is too much for me!  If I had to chip my truck out of ice to go to work I would just grow more pot on the hillside. I can hear many of you sneer, but it is LEGAL in Cali and is BIG BUSINESS.  There are numerous pot clubs in every city, sanctioned by the cops, selling kind bud right out in the open. Many of our parks here are being taken over by Mex. drug gangs that grow 1000's of plants worth millions of dollars in just 1 garden!  Sunshine, tasty waves and a good joint....are you guys on your way yet?  Sorry for the hijack, but amazed by the heartyness of even the women in these cold  places!