Guns...do I have your attention yet?

[Sonoran]

Hi Everybody,

My Dad is on the market for a rifle. We are both inexperienced with our knowledge of guns/gun buying so I figured this would be a good place to ask some questions.

He is wanting to buy a semi-auto rifle that we can take out to the range without breaking the bank, but is good to keep at home...'just in case.'  He's been looking online at cabelas, (We would have to go to the store to buy anyways)...and they do have some good rifles, but I'm sure they are selling at MSRP. Anyone have some suggestions for some good places to shop for rifles, and any personal preferences? I do have some bad news...we live in California. 

I was also wondering about older rifles like Don's Czech VZ.24 8mm Mauser? Anyways, there are many things I'm wondering about, but I'll let this get warmed up and see where it goes!

Thanks!

[NM_Shooter]

What it the intended purpose of the rifle?  Purely target shooting?

[MountainDon]

Wow! What a tin of worms you've opened!    I'm sure there will a couple of opinions on this.  

"He is wanting to buy a semi-auto rifle that we can take out to the range without breaking the bank,...."

Ruger 10/22  .22LR  fills that bill. I have one so I am biased. Neither the rifle itself or the ammo will break the bank. I have a Nikon 4x scope on it and like it.  One nice thing about the 10/22 is that there are tons of aftermarket parts. You can get crazy and spend a ton too. But the way it comes out of the box it works good and even if you buy match grade ammo it doesn't cost a lot to shoot. I've gotten to prefer Wolf or SK subsonic. I think they are very good for plinking. The magazine holds 10 shots and the semi auto action is reliable.


You mentioned old military rifles like my Czech VZ24. There are other Mauser variants as well that shoot the 8MM Mauser round. I like old guns, so that's a bias again too. There are also Russian Mosin Nagants available by the truckload. Lots of online places sell them. Do a Google or PM me and I'll send you my personal bookmarks. Both these have lots of mil-surplus ammo available reasonably priced. Be aware that all this WWI through WWII and after mil-surplus ammo uses corossive primers. You can not be sloppy and put off cleaning until you feel like it. But it's easy to clean; hot water or windshield washer fluid works well. Then oil.  The VZ24 with the Yugo 96 gr ammo has a real kick to it. I'm not sure if I'd advise starting with a mil-surplus. The Mosins especially are fairly cheap though.


For buying new you can go to Gallery of Guns   http://www.galleryofguns.com/gallery/   and enter the make, model, etc of what you are interested in. It will tell you the availability and then find dealers close to your zip code and show their pricing.


.223 ammo can also be had fairly cheap compared to most other high power rifle ammo. Lots to choose from in 223 rifles although CA has some funky laws with them.  I also have no idea if the old mil surplus rifles have a CA restrictions.  


And for sheer fun it's hard to beat a muzzleloader.    Big booms, billowing clouds of smoke. It's not for everyone though.

[flatdarkmars]

If it must be a centerfire semi-auto, and you can't move out of that benighted state, then off the top of my head you should consider the Ruger Mini-14 or Mini-30, the Kel-tec SU-16, the Saiga rifles in .223 or 7.62x39, or maybe even an SKS.  I'd take a good AR over any of the above, but the things you have to do to an AR to make it CA legal severely dampen my enthusiasm for the platform.  The Springfield Armory M1A is also a great rifle and available in a CA legal version (sans flash hider), but factory .308 ammo is a little pricey for casual plinking unless you have a lot of disposable income.  You could also satisfy your interest in having an old surplus rifle and a semi-auto at the same time by getting an M1 carbine or M1 Garand.

While I understand wanting a centerfire rifle (i.e. a "real" caliber) for the proverbial 'just in case', if you buy one you're quickly going to realize that .22 rimfire ammunition is a whole order of magnitude less expensive than any centerfire cartridge, so I would second Don's recommendation of the Ruger 10/22.  No arsenal is complete without at least one quality .22 rifle.

[Sonoran]

I second the idea of a .22   The ammo is very cheap. It sells at walmart for $15 for 500 which is nice. As much fun as it is to shoot something with a kick, I'm thinking that this may be the gun of the future generations. I really wonder how long we will be able to own guns/buy ammo. Same difference.

I started looking at the Ruger rifles on gallery of guns and the very first rifle I looked at was out of stock...I have a feeling I am going to get used to seeing that.

NM: Yeah, it will be purely target shooting. My Dad has never hunted so I know that we won't be using it for that. He mentioned that he would like to buy one because he thinks it would be fun for us to go out to the range together. And then he mentioned the "it would be nice to have one around the house" scenario. But we live in a small town and I doubt that would ever be an issue...and in the likely hood that it would, I'm sure a .22 could put someone down. But I know if he was serious about home defense he would buy a shotgun. I think my Dad was interested in rifles that shoot .223/5.56 because of the lingering home defense idea also.

Flatdarkmars: I was looking at the M1 Garand because I have heard a lot of good things about that rifle. I went to a site that sold them from $800 to $3000, is this a usual range?

And I definitely need to start looking into the gun laws in california...plus I'm sure that when he goes to buy one the dealer will let him know what is okay and what isn't.

[MountainDon]

Sonoran, re the M1A Garand. Have a look at the CMP site     http://www.thecmp.org/m1garand.htm

The special grade M1's are beautiful, and a piece of history.

[flatdarkmars]

Re: M1 Garand prices, a good shooter typically runs in the $800 to $1000 range.  Sometimes you can find one for less than that on GunBroker, or buy a service grade rifle from the CMP if you meet their purchasing requirements.  Any Garand priced higher than $1000 probably has a higher-than-average percentage of original matching parts and is therefore somewhat collectible.  Most Garands were extensively rebuilt during and after their time in military service; these mismatched and refinished rifles are perfectly fine to shoot and shouldn't cost over $1000.  Be aware that $0.75 per round is a good price on .30-06 ammo, with $1 or more not unusual; if you really want to shoot lots of .30-06 you probably want to reload your own to save money.

[poppy]

Certainly the CA laws limit your choices; sorry about that.

If by "not breaking the bank" you mean just the ammo. than any .22 would fit the bill.

You mention the shotgun for serious home defense and you would get a lot of agreement on that.  A decent pump shotgun will not break the bank.

You also mention .223 and some have already brought up the Ruger Mini 14 and the AR platform.

A combination that I have and really like is a mid-length gas system on a 16" barrel AR and a .22 conversion kit to make it cheap to shoot.  I, however, would not want to deal with the CA restrictions on AR's or even Mini 14's for that matter. (I also have the Mini 14 with a .22 conversion kit)

Maybe you can get a .22 tube fed semi-auto like the Marlin 60.  It doesn't have the magazine restriction problem but still has a higher than 10 capacity.

I have a couple of Ruger 10-22's also and really like them for plinking, but not with the Ruger mags.  25 or 30 round mags. makes them really fun to shoot, but there is CA laws again. 

[OlJarhead]

We have Ruger 10/22's and a Mini 14 as well as others.

If money isn't an object then the M1A is an excellent rifle -- I have the Scout Squad version which cost me $1650 -- but you mentioned something about price so let's compare some apples to apples

AR15's run typically $1000 - $1600+
Mini14 (same caliber) run typically $695 - $900

The Mini14 is relatively inexpensive to shoot, isn't a 'hunting caliber' but would work in a pinch and does provide plenty of target shooting fun for the money.

You can buy 10/20 and 30 round magazines for the Mini14 though it's probably best to buy Ruger mags for it as other manufacturers tend to have issues with making magazines work for the Mini14

The mini30, while in 7.62x39 (same caliber as AK47) doesn't offer much in magazine choices and most who have them don't much like the 10 round magazines they come with -- too small.  They are otherwise good guns i hear, just not as easy to get parts for as the mini14 in 5.56

On the topic of 5.56 vs. .223 they are not the same and this is important to note when buying older rifles.  If buy a new Ruger Mini14 don't worry, it's chambered to fire 5.56 and .223 just fine.

Finally the Ruger 10/22 is a fine rifle -- perhaps the best semi auto 22 ever made.  For $200 or less it's inexpensive and will give HOURS of cheap shooting fun.  It can be used to hunt birds or other small game but IS NOT a good home defense weapon.

Don't get me wrong, the .22 cartridge is capable of killing ALL living animals that I'm aware of, it is not a powerful cartridge that can be relied upon to stop someone intent on harming you SPECIALLY if they are on drugs.

One reason combat veterans who've faced drugged up opponents like .45ACP (1911) and 7.62x51 (m14) chambered firearms is that they DROP the oncoming drug addict rather then piss him off.

So, in short, clearly define your desire in a firearm (to yourself first) then approach it like this:

1. What Quality do I want?
2. How much am I willing to spend?
3. Am I ok with buying used?
4. What is the purpose of this firearm? -- be honest
5. Do I know how to shoot?  Or should I take some lessons first?

One thing people must always remember is that firearms are tools like anything else and if you don't know how to use them.....well I don't need to go there right?  hehe

For example, when I bought my Puma Legacy .454 Casull Model 92 rifle I wanted a brush gun that had the same caliber as my side arm (.45LC) so I could use the same bullets (that I reload) but that also had the capability of doubling as a home defense weapon with enough power to stop a man with one shot and the capacity to carry at least 8-10 rounds at a time.  It met all those requirements so I looked at Quality and found it's quality was up to my standards and then I looked at pricing an availability, decided to buy used and in the process ended up with a barely used rifle that is sweet as pie

Bear in mind that I have more firearms then the average Marine

My home defense weapon is first my Kimber Customer TLE II in .45ACP, second my Remington 870 Super Mag 12 Guage shotgun (with 18" turd barrel and #4 shot) and 3rd (for the zombies in cars) my M1A Scout Squad in 7.62x51 NATO

Oh and I shoot all of them at the range for fun

Cheers and good luck!
Erik

[poppy]

Erik

On the topic of 5.56 vs. .223 they are not the same and this is important to note when buying older rifles.  If buy a new Ruger Mini14 don't worry, it's chambered to fire 5.56 and .223 just fine.

This is an important point if buying used, or even new maybe in some cases.

The receiver on my Mini 14 is marked "Cal. .223" so I would never try to use 5.56 ammo.  In contrast my AR barrel is marked "5.56 Nato" so either .223 or 5.56 is fine to use.

[OlJarhead]

Erik

On the topic of 5.56 vs. .223 they are not the same and this is important to note when buying older rifles.  If buy a new Ruger Mini14 don't worry, it's chambered to fire 5.56 and .223 just fine.

This is an important point if buying used, or even new maybe in some cases.

The receiver on my Mini 14 is marked "Cal. .223" so I would never try to use 5.56 ammo.  In contrast my AR barrel is marked "5.56 Nato" so either .223 or 5.56 is fine to use.

The new Mini14's (at least ours anyway) are chambered in 5.56 and in the manual it states that they can use any military grade 5.56 ammunition.  However, like Poppy said, this is very important to check when buying this caliber.

Much like the .308 vs. 7.62x51 when buying larger caliber semi autos.

[peternap]

Well, time for my 0.02.

Considering neither of you are experienced shooters, I'd recommend a Mossberg 500 (Cheaper and I like them) or a Remington 870 (a little more expensive and I like them) as a defense and hunting gun.
Either a Ruger 1022 or a savage bolt action 22 for a fun/small game gun. The Ruger is fun and eats a lot of cheap ammo but the Savage with Accu trigger, is more accurate out of the box.

[Pritch]

You might want to take a look at the Kel-Tec SU-16 (.223) or SU-22 (.22).  They are inexpensive, lightweight rifles that fold in half for storage. 



The foreend also works as a bipod.



I have the Charlie model, which can be fired while folded.  I don't think is California legal.  It makes a great pack/truck gun.

[Sonoran]

My Dad and I went to a local gun store today and they had a few rifles to look at in the caliber my Dad has decided he wants which is the .223. They had the Kel-Tec that Pritch pictured below. It sure was neat how the stock folded out into a bi-pod. I think that is a cool feature.

They also had two other assualt rifles. I didn't look at the brands. The first one was an AR-15 style. It had a flash suppressor and pistol grip with m-16 style mechanisms but the magazine needs a tool to be ejected. My Dad really liked thas one. They also had a Russian version which had a detachable mag but no pistol grip. I think my Dad really liked the AR-15, it's just so darn expensive. I think it was $1200 and the Russian style with the AK-47 mechanisms was $500.

I don't know if he's primarily interested in the AR-15 just because the looks. By the way it does look really cool, but I was trying to remind him to look at the specs as well.

I was looking at the Ruger assualt rifles. They have the SR-22 and the SR-556 which just came out. The jump in price is from $400 to $1500 I believe. This is crazy! And then the .223 cost $.50 a round and up.

[OlJarhead]

My Dad and I went to a local gun store today and they had a few rifles to look at in the caliber my Dad has decided he wants which is the .223. They had the Kel-Tec that Pritch pictured below. It sure was neat how the stock folded out into a bi-pod. I think that is a cool feature.

They also had two other assualt rifles. I didn't look at the brands. The first one was an AR-15 style. It had a flash suppressor and pistol grip with m-16 style mechanisms but the magazine needs a tool to be ejected. My Dad really liked thas one. They also had a Russian version which had a detachable mag but no pistol grip. I think my Dad really liked the AR-15, it's just so darn expensive. I think it was $1200 and the Russian style with the AK-47 mechanisms was $500.

I don't know if he's primarily interested in the AR-15 just because the looks. By the way it does look really cool, but I was trying to remind him to look at the specs as well.

I was looking at the Ruger assualt rifles. They have the SR-22 and the SR-556 which just came out. The jump in price is from $400 to $1500 I believe. This is crazy! And then the .223 cost $.50 a round and up.

Did you look at the Ruger mini14's?  Called the 'ranch rifle' these days I think.  They even come in sinister black now and Tapco stocks are inexpensive -- so if it's evil black gun that you want but you want to spend less, that is an option.

By the way, I've never heard of an AR15 that requires a tool to remove the magazine??  Is the California or something?

If it is Cali, you might want to check the new ammo laws, I think you are now restricted in how much you can buy at one time and have to be finger printed or something.

[poppy]

Sonoran, please don't call them "assualt rifles".  That's what the media and gun control folks want to call them to make them seem evil.

Functionally, a Ruger Mini 14 ranch rifle with a benign wood stock and no pistol grip, etc. is basically the same as a black AR 15.

They both shoot the same ammo with a semi-auto action. 

As Erik pointed out, there are Mini 14's that are black and cost about $700 around here, but in CA. who knows.  You would probably run into the same problem with the pinned mags. (a stupid CA. requirement)

I would give the Kel Tec a serious look.  They make pretty good cost effective firearms.

The Ruger SR-556 is more of a gun than you would ever need.  They are for the really serious AR guys.

Yes $1200 is expensive for a basic AR.  Good ones are down to about $800 new around here, but again CA.

[flatdarkmars]

In California, they can only have one 'evil' feature.  A detachable box magazine is evil.  So to have an AR, you can either have a funky looking stock that makes it not a pistol grip (because pistol grips are evil too), or you can have a normal pistol grip but then you have to have a fixed magazine that requires the use of a tool to remove.  Mini-14s can still have detachable magazines because they don't have a pistol grip.

Needless to say, you can't have an evil flash hider on any these rifles either.  Muzzle breaks are okay though.

For my $0.02, I'd rather have a detachable magazine than a pistol grip.  Plenty of perfectly serviceable rifles don't have pistol grips, but being able to change the magazine quickly and without tools has some actual practical value.  The 'bullet button' CA-legal fixed AR magazines are mostly for those who want (approximately) the original cosmetic appearance but don't care about functionality.

[OlJarhead]

Always wondered what that was about in CA!  My M1A Scout Squad is an evil brown rifle

By the way, there are assualt rifles and there are battle rifles -- an M16 is actually called an assualt rifle and is designed for close combat.  Battle Sight Zero is set to 300 yards (most battles were fought at that range in the past) and the weapon is small caliber with a high rate of accurate fire.

Battle rifles are larger caliber and designed for more power and greater range.  While they might battle site zero at 300 yards also, they are quite capable of shooting 800-1000 yards while the M16 is not (unless it's an area target up to 800 yards)....

All of which is nonsense in so many ways but as a Marine that's how I thought of them.

In truth the whole subject is mute in my opinion since "...shall not be infringed" means, well, what it means.

Quite frankly I think it's constitutional to own an M60

[Pritch]

My Dad and I went to a local gun store today and they had a few rifles to look at in the caliber my Dad has decided he wants which is the .223. They had the Kel-Tec that Pritch pictured below. It sure was neat how the stock folded out into a bi-pod. I think that is a cool feature.

The SU-16 has been really hard to find lately, especially in California.  I'm glad you guys got a chance to see one.  What were they asking for it, if you don't mind?  (There is a "bullet button" option for California owners, which is designed to meet the legal restrictions but still offer a degree of detachability.) 

[RainDog]

You might want to take a look at the Kel-Tec SU-16 (.223)

Nice. Something new for my wish list!

[Sonoran]

Did you look at the Ruger mini14's?  Called the 'ranch rifle' these days I think.  They even come in sinister black now and Tapco stocks are inexpensive -- so if it's evil black gun that you want but you want to spend less, that is an option.

By the way, I've never heard of an AR15 that requires a tool to remove the magazine??  Is the California or something?

If it is Cali, you might want to check the new ammo laws, I think you are now restricted in how much you can buy at one time and have to be finger printed or something.

We didn't get to look at any Rugers, they didn't have any. It is a very small gun shop. We do have the option of driving about 1 hour to go to a larger gun shop that I'm sure will have the mini 14's.

And other people pretty much covered the California laws as far as I'm aware. I've had it explained to me as strikes...three strikes and you are out. And certain things count as strikes like detachable mag and pistol grip. Although I think no matter what you can't have a detachable mag and a pistol grip.

The mag is locked in by a button that you are supposed to be able to open with the tip of a bullet...they kept calling it a 'bullet button.'

Pritch: I'm not quite sure but I think it was around $350 or $400 if I remember correctly.

I agree with flatdarkmars on the the magazine. I would much rather have a detchable magazine versus a pistol grip.

[MountainDon]

Loads of 10/22's available on Davidson's (Gallery of Guns) today. Sale $$ too. Plus a lot of Mini-14's in .223