did I do wrong?

[muldoon]

My daughter is 8 years old, in the 3rd grade.  She has been having some trouble with bullies this year.  Two kids in her class have been pretty tacky with her and a 4th grade girl as well.  The 4th grader, Maya - a mexican girl has been pushing her, calling her names and punched her this week.  The two in her class, Samir and a different girl have been pushing her and calling her names as well.  She's been coming home and crying at night when she tells me whats going on.  She did tell a teacher, in fact two different teachers at different occasions, which the students in question then said "I didnt do anything" and the whole thing just went away only to have them tormenting her even more after the fact. 

I spent 3 hours tonight teaching her how to punch.  How to stand, how to breath, how to hold a fist, how to control your thoughts, to aim, how to aim behind the real target, how to transfer weight on her legs as her arm extended, how to keep pushing with that fist as it landed, and I told her to go for the bridge of the nose.  She started off quite crappy, much as one would expect a little girl to punch - and after getting the hang of it quite powerful, especially for her frame.  I'm a grown man and I wouldn't want to get hit in the nose by those after she got the idea firmly planted in her mind. 

I'm finding myself feeling somewhat guilty and quite concerned about all of this.  I do not want her to feel she has to slug her way through life's challenges, but on the other hand - no one has the right to punch her.   No one.  She has the right to defend herself.  I explained that she very well would get in trouble with the school no matter what happens if she were to get caught fighting, and that I would have some pointed questions about what happened, who started it, and the like.  I then told her that if the situation was warranted, she would be in no trouble with me if she defended herself. 

I don't want to give her the idea that she can just go around punching people that make her mad, life is full of assholes afterall.  I also do not want to tell her or give her the idea she has to battle an endless line of people that do not have respect for her because that is no life either.  Anyone else ever go through this, if so what did you find that worked?  Am I way out of line by giving her some tools to defend herself with?  Any other ideas that may be useful in the situation? 

[Redoverfarm]

Muldoon the kids now are in a "no win" situation at school.  The facilty doesn't really care who was right or who was wrong in any situation.  They punish both the same if an altercation takes place.  Last year my son was approached by one of his fellow students who thought it was cute to try to stuff paper down his shirt.  My son told him twice to stop and get away.  He repeatedly kept his harrassment to the point that my son pushed him away. He swung and under my advice my son defended himself. Fight over.  There were several other students that witnessed what had happened and reported that to the school personel exactly the way my son stated had taken place.  There logic was that my son had pushed the boy away and the boy was defending himself.  Yes but when my son struck his blow after the boy swung at him it was not defending "himself"  Three days suspension for both.  You have to know my son who is fairly level headed and if I do say so myself acts older than he is.  The principle which was not there at the time couldn't believe that he was involved in something because it was completely out of character for him. Never the less that was the County School Board Policy. COS if you ask me. 

To me there is always a "Cause and effect" which apparently was never taught to the school personel during their education.  In fact I have very little respect for the education system in place now.  I have dealt with it for 25+ years in my employment (not educational) and have seen a steady decline in the moral values given to our children in the educational system. In any incident that ocurs there is no inquiry as to the nature of the problem only a policy that is followed .  I think it is just a way that they do not have to spend the time to investigate what occured to make a decision on who was right or wrong.  I really don't want to see my children grow up but I wish they were already out of school.

[ScottA]

You did the right thing muldoon. I told my kids defend yourself if needed but don't start fights. The schools are run by robots these days. Better to have a 3 day suspension that a kid whos scared to go to school.

[waggin]

If she's interested, martial arts might help her even more with confidence.  Not getting beaten on would be a nice result as well.  Be very selective about the instructor/facility though; there are huge differences. 

I think you accurately summed up the impossible situation she has.  To me, teaching her how to defend herself is absolutely the right thing to do.  Maybe ask her which teachers she notified and when, so if she does get in trouble down the road for defending herself, you can point to her asking for help & being ignored.  Hopefully that will help at that point to reduce or eliminate any punishment. 

There hasn't been much change over time.  Bullying & sexual harassment have always been rampant in school.  I'm in my 40's and remember how it worked and how it just wasn't seen as a problem by faculty or parents during my school years.  The arbitrary punishment to all involved when it finally boils over, regardless of who instigated, thing was the same back then too.

[Virginia Gent]

You did the right thing, in my opinion. When I was in the 6th grade, this kid named Alex kept picking on me and my father decided to do the same thing you did with your daughter. He gave me the same talk too, that you can't solve everything by fighting, but you have the right to defend yourself. Next time Alex hit me, I hit back and it was over; the kid left me alone the rest of the year, as did all who use to pick on me. I see nothing wrong with showing your daughter how to defend herself. Who cares what the school says.

[harry51]

I agree with all the above comments. You did exactly the right thing for your daughter. A three day suspension is a small price to pay to avoid the kind of emotional turmoil and depression that comes with being constantly victimized.

I think the "equal guilt" policy about fights that seems pretty universal in our gov't schools stems from (call me a conspiracy theorist) their position that self defense is akin to taking the law into one's own hands, that use of any sort of violence has been strictly delegated to the "authorities", and that establishing/maintaining/protecting this gov't monopoly on violence is far more important than any benefit some insignificant individual may realize by its use.

So they punish the victim and the assailant equally because both (if the victim defended himself) trespassed on gov't turf by their use of violence. Never mind that most school bullies consider a suspension nothing more than a vacation, they consider him a lost cause already. But the victim kid gets the lesson that he's gov't property, to be defended or not at the whim of the authorities, and if he defends himself, it will cost him.

[Redoverfarm]

What really gets my goat is that if it wasn't for the offending party my child would not be in trouoble.  Secondly we as parents encourage the child to go to school and stay in school and the system seems to undermine what we are trying to enstow in our children.  The three days seems inocent enough but the loss of education that could be gained in those three days may last a lot longer than that.  This sort of reminds me when I use to investigate accidents.  There is one contributing factor which caused the accident.  Shoot lets forget that one and give both parties a ticket and go about our buisness.  Who cares how it happened.

[StinkerBell]

I think you did the right thing Muldoon.

My daughter was suspended from school and she did not hit back! She got hit but fell when she was hit. She grabbed the girl as she fell, this was witnessed and reported as such. My daughter was still suspended for 3 days. No logic. So I told the principal fine, but let me tell you this. The next time my daughter is bothered by anyone she has my permission to beat the crap out of the person. The principal started to stammer and said I could not do that. I said yes I can, you punished her when she made a conscience choice not to defend herself because she said she did not want to get suspended, yet she still got suspended. So, we have come to the conclusion that it does not matter if she defends herself, if she does nothing or if she starts a fight. With that conclusion she has been instructed/granted permission to beat the crap out of anyone who bothers her. You are now on notice. Then I walked out of his office. He kept on saying I could not do that, I said why yes I can and I just did! Funny thing is, she was never bothered by anyone again.

[emcvay]

I was bullied as a kid -- badly -- but once I learned they were cowards I was never bullied again.

Part of what gave me that knowledge was Tae-Kwon-Do and Boxing, but mostly I think it was the realization that I had to stand up to them -- once you do they leave and you learn.

[Dog]

StinkerBell, I would not want to get into a fight with you. 

Muldoon, I believe you did the right thing teaching your daughter to fight. I was so grateful when my dad gave me some tips when I was a kid.