Off-Site Solar?

[Pritch]

I read about an idea where homeowners were buying in to projects where they own a very small plot of land as part of a co-op in a very high solar-producing area like Arizona or Nevada for the purpose of installing a gridtie PV system. They would produce electricity at this location but use virtually none, as there is no structure there. All of their production would go in to the grid to offset their use at another location. Each "plot would only be large enough for the PV system and a power meter.  Presumably, the purchase would include security and maintenance. 

I've seen some really cheap land listed in areas that I have no desire to live in.  Taking a couple of acres and "subdividing" into dozens or hundreds of "solar plots" would further divide the price. 

Has anybody ever heard about this? It sounds like a great idea from the homeowner's perspective but I can see how the power producers wouldn't like it very much. I can see that it wouldn't work without power company cooperation, and that it could get complicated by inputting power in one district (or state) and consuming it in another.  Any thoughts? 

-- Pritch

[wildbil]

That sounds like something awesome. Of course once the power company figures out how to stop it they will. those co-opers should just build a large solar pv system and live near each other and power themselves directly.

[MountainDon]

I've not heard of this myself; interesting concept though. If it was part of a co-op I wonder how much of the generated powers value would be eaten in administration costs, the fences, security, etc.

Whether or not the power companies would like the idea depends on variables that would vary from state to state. Here in NM state law mandates the power companies generate a certain of of power using renewable sources such as solar or wind. Because of that my local company, PNM, does have a deal where they actually pay the homeowner with an array of PV panels for the excess power generated. With them it is an actual monthly check if you produce more than you consume. A DIY can do all the work except for the actual grid tie connection. That requires a licensed electrician.

They pay a higher rate than what we pay when buying power from them. It's a good deal for them because that homeowner generated power counts towards their mandated renewable energy requirement, and they didn't have to pay for the installation or to maintain it. It's offered to homeowners and businesses. There is a one time up front fee of $150 for this.

As you stated part of the problem would be there are a lot of different power companies. Our home is PNM while out cabin site falls under the Jemez Valley Co-op. I've never checked what they offer as we are off grid up there.

[Pritch]

If this ever comes about, there are other applications that would make alternate energy more feasable for more people.  For instance, a company may have much better solar exposure (and room) at one of its facilities than its others.  It may be able to generate enough power there to offset other facilities as well.  Or you might have great wind available at your cabin site and want to generate electricity to offset what you use iin you condo in the city where AE is not an option. 

There are a lot of creative, outside the (small) box thinkers here, so I'm anxious to hear your thoughts. 

-- Pritch

[glenn kangiser]

This may be OK but my thoughts on this are I don't like to put money into something that is not mine or that someone else is in control of or where you have to deal with a group of people.  Too many cooks spoil the soup.

Just my opinion

[Pritch]

Don, I have no idea what the admin costs on a "co-op" like this would be.  If you had a desert rat do it with a portion of his property, and he lived onsite, he could provide onsite maintenance and security.  I dunno how many plots you could fit in an acre, or how many a single person could comfortably maintain, but I can see how it could be affordable and still let the guy make a living.  Grid tie systems don't require batteries, so maintenance would be pretty minimal. 

Glenn, even if the "co-op" idea doesn't blow your skirt up, doesn't the idea of being able to put in at one point and take out at another sound like it would be useful for a lot of people?  IIRC, you own multiple properties.    

My personal situation probably won't lend itself to this setup, as I'll most llikely be off grid.  Nonetheless, I'm intrigued by the possibilities. 

-- Pritch

[glenn kangiser]

The concept is good and could be useful in some situations.

[John Raabe]

This may have some of the same problems as timeshare condos - that is the maintenance costs are an owners responsibiliy but not under their control, and the fact that the resale market is questionable (usually more supply than demand).

On the other hand, there may also be advantages, especially if there are tax incentives that individual owners could qualify for.

Otherwise, why wouldn't the utility buy the whole parcel and reap economies of scale by installing a single PV farm and harvesting the green PR for themselves?

There is so much interesting work going on in alternative electrical generation... Here is a link to a fascinating design for extracting energy from slow moving water such as tidal flows and old slow rivers. Much more elegant than the big dams and other "brute force" turbine designs. It is based on the vibrating energy of fish swimming upstream: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/renewableenergy/3535012/Ocean-currents-can-power-the-world-say-scientists.html

[brian_nj]

This may be OK but my thoughts on this are I don't like to put money into something that is not mine or that someone else is in control of or where you have to deal with a group of people.  Too many cooks spoil the soup.

Just my opinion

I agree 100% and you also loose the added benifit of a solar or any alt-e system by not having it on site the ability to control your own power. Power in the country goes down a lot (at least where we have land) having the solar and the batteries on site allow you to have power when others are in the dark.

[glenn kangiser]

I saved a couple thousand dollars worth of frozen food by being totally off grid and controlling my own power during the recent fire.   Losses by on grid customers here I estimated at $2,000,000.00 but it may be a low estimate as another neighbor mentioned she had $1500 worth of meat in her freezer.

[Pritch]

Hi John!  I don't know if any of these co-ops exist yet, but it is certainly possible that the maintenace fees could be so high as to make this unworkable.  On the other hand, since the major maintenance is keeping the arrays clean, and you could arguably have as many as 100 individual arrays per acre, it seems likely that you could find a balancing point. 

I'll try a hypothetical here.  I'm guessing at the numbers, but I've seen such property with water for less than $2k/acre.  It may be available for much less.  Assume that Desert Rat, our resident manager buys a 5 acre parcel for $12,500 and devotes 1 acre to the solar co-op.  Let's assume that that acre can be divided up into 100 solar plots, including access roadways $25 each lot).  Assume site prep cost $10,000 ($100 each lot) and another $10,000 ($100 each lot) for fence, CCTV, and security system.  Assume meter installation for each plot costs $275 but isn't due until the customer is ready to install his array.  The actual cost at this point for each lot is $500.  Let's assume a 100% mark up so the sale price of the plots so the initial sale price would be $1000.  (About the price of one solar panel.)  This amount could be recovered immediately if multiple plot users were able to negotiate group purchase of components and installation.  It would also be offsset because a smaller array would be necessary than if it was installed in a poorer solar area.  At this point, Desert Rat has $22,500 invested in the solar co-op, and another $10,000 invested in the remaining 4 acres.  Break even would occur upon selling his 33rd plot.  If demand justified it, he could convert a second acre to solar plots later.  Monthly maintenance costs would be to moniter each system, hose down the array once a month, to provide security.  Let's say $10 per month for each plot.  If Desert Rat is also a professional solar tech/installer, then his income could be enhanced by system installation and repairs. 

I don't know how close these numbers are or if they would make such a project unworkable. 

There are solar technologies that are more efficient than PV panels that appeal to large scale generators like power companies.  These are usually priced out of reach to individuals.  Perhaps if this idea caught on, projects could be launched with sufficient participants to go after mirror farms etc. 

This is NOT a replacement for off-grid RE systems.  If a person is planning on a grid tie system but his location is marginal for sun (or wind, micro hydro, etc.) then having the option to offload generation to a more suitable location might be helpful.  Regarding power failures, you could still have a backup bank of batteries and a generator at your location - only the solar panels would be elsewhere.   

If you've got good solar exposure at your cabin site this would be an unnecessary expense.  And if your property doesn't have power to it, it just won't work.  That being said, if you want to build in an area like the Pacific Northwest, where sunlight is almost nonexistant for a good part of the year, this could help.

-- Pritch

[MountainDon]

It could work Pritch. The big thing would be getting the power company where the PV panels are located to pay a reasonable amount for the power generated and sent up through the grid tie.

You would not need to complicate the proposal with having the energy credits routed through to the other power company if they would just pay cash. The money could go to the co-op and the money distributed on a as generated basis via a check.

Regarding power failures, you could still have a backup bank of batteries and a generator at your location - only the solar panels would be elsewhere.   

Batteries would not really be required with this. I'd just go with an automatic transfer switch and automatic generator start. I haven't looked into this but it would be nice if there could be a short delay, 5 to 10 minutes, before the generator starts up. That would save short cycling as some outages here are just quick blips. And it would be nice if the system would make the generator run long enough to get warmed up good rather than shut down after 5 minutes when the power is quickly restored.

[alcowboy]

http://www.enviroharvest.ca/

I find this interesting.