Joe Horn

[muldoon]

I know this thing is a bit controversial, he shoots two men in the back while they run from him after robbing his neighbor.  It's kinda crappy, not sure if I would do the same thing in his shoes.  That being said, if he showed up to move in next door to me I'd share a beer with him for sure.  He was not indicted by the grand jury this week and is completely free.  From a Texas law standpoint, he did nothing wrong.  In my opinion, he escalated an already bad situation and has to live with his actions, not something I would particularly want to do. 

I am curious how would this might have worked in other states, what's your take on his actions? 


Texas Penal Code Sec. 9.42.

D. Use of Deadly Force to Protect Property

Chapter 9.42 of the Texas Penal Code explains when deadly force is justified to protect one's property. Chapter 9.42 explains that:

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

E. Use of Force to Protect the Property of Others

Chapter 9.43 of the Texas Penal Code explains when a person is justified in using force to protect the property of another person. Chapter 9.43 explains that:

A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property of a third person if, under the circumstances as he reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.41 or 9.42 in using force or deadly force to protect his own land or property and:
(1) the actor reasonably believes the unlawful interference constitutes attempted or consummated theft of or criminal mischief to the tangible, movable property; or
(2) the actor reasonably believes that:
(A) the third person has requested his protection of the land or property;
(B) he has a legal duty to protect the third person's land or property; or
(C) the third person whose land or property he uses force or deadly force to protect is the actor's spouse, parent, or child, resides with the actor, or is under the actor's care.

[peternap]

In Virginia, you cannot use deadly force to protect property. There has to br a reasonable fear for your life or harm. It;s a little like the Southpark episode where you shout "HE"S COMING RIGHT AT ME" before you shoot.

I would not have shot but won't condemn him for it.

[ScottA]

There was an incident in Oklahoma a few years back where a Rancher caught two guys stealing his cows. He confronted them and an argument insued. The Rancher was armed but the rustlers where not. During the argument / fight whatever was the case he shot and killed both men. The state charge him with 2nd degree murder and put him on trial. To the states dismay the jury found him not guilty despite the fact they (the state) had proven he killed the men. Lucky for him his peers where of the opinion that stealing cows was punnishable by death.

[Redoverfarm]

WV is basickly the same as VA.  IF the person was retreating then I would not imagine there would be a threat of receiving bodily injury.  The exception would be that he was going to retrieve a weapon  and upon his return he would be a duster IMO.

[glenn kangiser]

Does this mean that shooting graffiti taggers in the night with a rifle is illegal?  I hate to see that.

Best thing I heard in a long time was the one in Fresno painting the freeway in the night and someone shot at him.  He ran - jumped and broke both ankles or legs and layed there all night until found in the morning.

Is it the humane thing to do to put them out of their misery when you find them like that -- laying there all broken in the ditch? hmm  Please -- oh pretty please?

[muldoon]

glen, I recall a case here in Texas where a man came out at night and found someone doing grafiti and he shot the man.  The "artist" turned out to be using sidewalk chalk and he died.  No charges were filed against the homeowner. 

I am not one to defend criminals, nor do I have a problem with responsible gun use.  (including this one to some extent).  I just somewhat mourn the necessity of it in our society.  I wont lose any sleep over the two illegal immigrant columbian home invaders and thieves dieing, but I also do not take any pleasure in seeing this no-one-win situation either.  This is no victory for anyone in my opinion. 

Personally I draw the line at my door.  If they are inside my house it is past any chance of a misunderstanding.  The risks of trying to determine their intentions at that point is too great.  I am not a macho kind of person though, I hope I am never put in that situation. 

[glenn kangiser]

I actually wouldn't do it either but wouldn't blame someone if they did.  If a persons only purpose in life is to deface or destroy other peoples stuff then I don't see much need for them.

The bad thing is when they deface or destroy things such as stop signs and an innocent party is killed because of it.  I have seen where it has happened.

[sparks]

This started in my home town last week, Rock Falls, IL  http://ads.qctimes.com/articles/2008/07/02//news/local/doc486c453901c95030472002.txt

I currently don't own any guns.

Tomorrow, I believe that's going to change.  A good 12 or 20 guage should suffice.

There is a lot of low rent vermin out there. @ssholes

[muldoon]

What a horrible article, I just dont know what to say about that.  What drives a person ...  I just dont know sometimes.

Anyway, you can't go wrong with a Remington 870 for a 12 gauge shotgun.  Reasonably priced, millions of them sold, most used shotgun in law enforcement, spare parts and experienced people with it everywhere, tight & nice shotgun.  They all come with an interchangle barrel system making them customizable as needed for home setup, bird hunting, slug for deer hunting barrels if you want.  Simple pump action makes them easy to clean and keep in good working order unlike the semi autos that can be complicated.  Usually sold anywhere, I bought one of mine at a Walmart but I'm not sure they still sell guns. 

I also wouldn't turn my nose up on a pawnshop shotgun.  Sometimes the old pumps seem to get better with a few thousand rounds through them.  Stay clear of rust or pitting on the barrel or receiver, but if it looks good, feels solid, and you like it, go for it. 

For loads, a human lethal shot many recommend is the 00 buck.  Its nine pellets essentially the size of .45 shots coming out at roughly the same velocity.  In that type of situation, your not shooting to make friends, and if the target is 2 legged, it'll do. 

[glenn kangiser]

Are you near Knoxville/Galesburg, sparks?

[peternap]

What a horrible article, I just dont know what to say about that.  What drives a person ...  I just dont know sometimes.

Anyway, you can't go wrong with a Remington 870 for a 12 gauge shotgun.  Reasonably priced, millions of them sold, most used shotgun in law enforcement, spare parts and experienced people with it everywhere, tight & nice shotgun.  They all come with an interchangle barrel system making them customizable as needed for home setup, bird hunting, slug for deer hunting barrels if you want.  Simple pump action makes them easy to clean and keep in good working order unlike the semi autos that can be complicated.  Usually sold anywhere, I bought one of mine at a Walmart but I'm not sure they still sell guns. 

I also wouldn't turn my nose up on a pawnshop shotgun.  Sometimes the old pumps seem to get better with a few thousand rounds through them.  Stay clear of rust or pitting on the barrel or receiver, but if it looks good, feels solid, and you like it, go for it. 

For loads, a human lethal shot many recommend is the 00 buck.  Its nine pellets essentially the size of .45 shots coming out at roughly the same velocity.  In that type of situation, your not shooting to make friends, and if the target is 2 legged, it'll do. 

What does drive people ? There seem to be many more sick people than ever.

What muldoon said about shotguns. I have both the 870 and Mossberg 500.
Actually, I have several of each.

The 870 may have a very slight edge in fit and finish but to be honest, there isn't much difference between the two.

I like the 500 a little better because the 500 has a tang safety and th 870 has a crossbolt. The tang is faster using a standard stock. The crossbolt is faster using a pistol grip.

You pays your money and you makes your choice.

[apaknad]

what a tragedy for these innocent victims and their families. this person should be knee capped after the trial and then hanged on the same day. let him feel some pain before death.

[peternap]

Oh...Sparks. If you do get a shotgun, I use #6 shot for an inside the house load. At room distances, it is just as lethal as buck and sheetrock takes all the energy out of it. It's an important consideration if you have other people in the house.

[glenn kangiser]

I doubt that any other forums have the range of information we have.  Thanks for the info, Peter.

[sparks]

Are you near Knoxville/Galesburg, sparks?

I'm just north of there, about an hour and a half. Also, thanks for the info. I spoke with the wife and she doesn't have a problem with keeping a little firepower around. She used to hunt deer many years ago; she's probably a much better shot than I.

[apaknad]

just to clarify, i was talking about that guy named feley that killed all those people including a toddler and was just captured a few days ago. i don't think all criminals should be knee capped.

[sparks]

Are you near Knoxville/Galesburg, sparks?

I responded to your question. Relatives or friends there?

Or did you have something else on your mind.........

[glenn kangiser]

Forgot to get back to that-- My daughter got married there - My ex wife and her husband live in Knoxville.

Sassy and I went back there and had a few meals at the Landmark Cafe in Galesburg.  My Brother-in-law grew up in Galesburg.

Ex-wife married a friend of his.

Probably about 7  or 8 years ago we went there.

[sparks]

Something I recall about that area was their high school football teams. Corn fed giants.


However, not to diverge from chit chat.....

Last week, we sure needed a Joe Horn. I know the parents of a couple of the victims of Sheley's onslaught.

Very, very sad...

[glenn kangiser]

Something I recall about that area was their high school football teams. Corn fed giants.

Oh - you've met my Brother -in-law.  Not giant, bt big -- his kid - my nephew is pretty much a giant -- pretty good people.

My mom said he was full of crap - so I made a salesman out of him in 1974. 

He is still selling in the building business and still does quite well at it.  Actually head hunters from a competitors company came to get hime because we had been beating the pants off of them for years.  82 building bust I let  him go over to them and that's where he still is.

I sent the local area article to my daughter who is in Oregon -- she said she met a guy there with the same killer mentality so could see how it could happen -- apparently his parents tied him and his sister up and made them do uncool things.  Warped world.

[sparks]

Oh...Sparks. If you do get a shotgun, I use #6 shot for an inside the house load. At room distances, it is just as lethal as buck and sheetrock takes all the energy out of it. It's an important consideration if you have other people in the house.

The application for my FOID went in today. I'm leaning towards the Mossberg. And another piece that might be handy.

[NM_Shooter]

Do be careful even with #6 though... at close ranges a single wall of sheet rock won't slow the string down much.  Once the pattern spreads and each shot gets fresh sheet rock to stop in, it won't go too far.

I remember as a kid we could cut down small oak trees (maybe 2 " in diameter) with a single charge of #6 squirrel load if you were up close! 

But I would agree that #6 is a good load for inside the house. 

I once had a friend argue that he would not use hollow point .44 loads as he wanted penetration if he had to shoot someone through a door or wall (?!?!).  He said that the .44 bullet would explode when it hit sheet rock.  I bet him that he was full of crap.  We went to the range, and set up 4 layers of sheetrock, each about 2' apart.  We shot multiple calibers through it, and they all made nice round diameter holes through the rock.  We dug up the berm and found some mostly-intact bullets with the hollow points full of gypsum 

[peternap]

Oh...Sparks. If you do get a shotgun, I use #6 shot for an inside the house load. At room distances, it is just as lethal as buck and sheetrock takes all the energy out of it. It's an important consideration if you have other people in the house.

The application for my FOID went in today. I'm leaning towards the Mossberg. And another piece that might be handy.

I assume FOID is a Firearm Owner ID....What a shame that you have to be subjected to that.

Shooter, I'm getting pickier about my loads all the time. Since I got the BFR, I've been loading chambers 1 &2 with #4 .410 and 3,4,and 5 with 45 LC True Keith bullets.

For a burb walking around gun I started leaving the 3" 44 spl at home (It;s heavy) and carrying my American Derringer Corp with #1 bbl .410 #4 shot and #2 the same 45 LC and my Taser. Really bad areas still merit the 44 spl.

[MountainDon]

I believe that once the perpetrator turned and ran, any real danger disappeared, and he should have held his fire. On the other hand, TX state law is worded in such a manner that he was within his rights to fire. The criminal should have been aware of that I guess.

In a recent NM case with some similarities the shooter ended up going to trial and jail/prison. I believe he's been released; there was a firestorm of public disapproval regarding the prison sentence. Many want Gov. Bill to pardon him, but I don't think he will.

I wish people did not steal and crime was obsolete... but it is not.

Yeah, wouldn't it be nice. But that's never been the case anywhere on earth. The only places that have low crime rates are those with Draconian laws like Saudia Arabia where they still cut off hands for theft and have public beheadings for murder and rape. And many of those criminals are foreigners.

[considerations]

"I'm leaning towards the Mossberg"

He's a good friend of mine as well.