Learning from history (ID in Amerika)

[peternap]

I used to rock climb. I started before all the fancy equipment we have today was readily available so I had to do things like tie my own harness. The first thing I learned was to NOT tie off around my chest, instead, tie tie leg loops and use a chest strap to keep from turning upside down.

Did I learn this by using a chest strap and dieing?? Well....NO! I learned by studying the past mistakes of others.

We have a bill in Va this year that requires people to Identify themselves to police when asked. It goes hand in hand with the Federal REAL ID bill. A lot of people say it's a good thing to keep us safe.

Attached are some past mistakes of others/ Why haven't we learned?

ID



Certificate of Execution



People being kept safe

[ScottA]

I don't think it's so much the ID's that area the problem. We need to be able to prove who we are. It's the information that's attached to our records and how that information is used that is the problem. Sooner or later we'll all be chipped so we won't even need papers. They'll be able to scan you from a distance.

[peternap]

I guess that's one of those things that each person needs to decide for themselves Scott. All have different situations, needs and responsibilities.

I've already drawn a line in the sand and don't plan to change it. I'm also a lot older than you I suspect, and most of my life is behind me. What's left will be lived on my terms.

[ScottA]

Can't argue with that Peter but I can't see how not having an ID will help anyone. I think what bothers people the most is the fact that there is no where to hide so to speak. Something in us wants the ability to disapear if needed. Some whould say if you want to hide you must be guilty of something but I don't belive thats true. I think it's part of our natural defences.

[peternap]

People can vanish and in fact do every day Scott. I wouldn't want to live that way but it can be done. When I worked for the Feds, I chased one fellow who held the record for being on the FBI's most wanted list, longer than anyone else, for years.

I got close and missed him by fifteen minutes once at his sons funeral but he managed to stay in limbo until he died. He had been in California and owned a restaurant for many years under an assumed name.
When records are kept, they can be used to identify what people have done, have in their possession, where they travel...on and on.

Once the record exists, it doesn't go away.

[benevolance]

Peter

So when glenn or I decide to really go out on the lamb it is you who they will send to bring us in then?

As far as I am concerned I should not have to do anything...As a citizen i have rights supposedly guaranteed by the declaration of independence and the constitution... Exercising those rights is one of my main goals in life.

carry id, get new real id or whatever.... as far as I am concerned is a violation of my privacy.... I think we are looking at this all wrong...If the government wants me...or suspects me....I am innocent until proven guilty and I do not need to prove anything to anyone ever....They need to prove whatever they are trying to prove... be it they are trying to prove I am related to Osama or behind on my property taxes...If they cannot prove whatever they are trying to prove then they go away and bother someone else.

A man on his own land bothering nobody should have the right to privacy so long as he does not endanger or violate the rights and freedoms of any other citizen... Period

I want no part of new rules regs ids whatever... I will retreat to the woods and they can leave me alone...

In Germany they had a bricklayer die as the patsy for setting the house of commons on fire...That was the excuse they used for having a military government in Germany....Martial law and then all the great things followed... jew registration slavery death camps.... occupation of europe.... All for the protection of the people.. for security...

Every time bush and company open their mouths I see Hitler...Only Hitler had a clue, insane as he was... he knew exactly what he was doing and how to accomplish all of his goals...

But because Bush wraps himself in the flag and uses lies like freedom, and patriotism we see new id's the elimination of civil liberties and people being forced to register with the government as good and reasonable acts for security in this country...

It is sickening people. We have rights and these are a violation of our rights.... plain and simple

[peternap]

is you who they will send to bring us in then?

Not any more. It's been a long time now and yes...I was pretty much as anti control then as I am now.

This is getting scary. Two days in a row we agree

[benevolance]

Well then since we agree on everything maybe you can put a good word in for us with big brother

[peternap]

Well then since we agree on everything maybe you can put a good word in for us with big brother Wink

I expect you have a lot more pull with Big Brother than I. I wasn't especially well liked. I worked on a multi jurisdictional fugitive task force. The people I was given were major felons. Murderers, large scale drug dealers and escapees from state prisons and jails mostly. I don't think you or Glenn fit in that category.

I had excellent success catching them but I was too rough to suit the powers that be. I also disliked the Agents  I had to work with and it was pretty clear. My opinion was and still is, that they are the best in house investigators in the world.... but.....when they left the building and had to work where the sky was blue, they were lost.

It is a time in my life I am not especially proud of and left me with a couple of bullet holes, broken bones and a lot of emotional scars.

[glenn kangiser]

Glad you are here to tell about it, Peter.  We can take advantage of your knowledge.  I'm with you-- I will have to be dead before I let them chip me.  I am a prisoner here in our free AmeriKa because I refuse to carry a chipped passport.  I hear you can accidently smash them with a hammer etc, but that may be considered tampering. (25 yrs in prison)
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/12/28/howto-disable-your-n.html


Fire up the gas chambers, Bush and get them damn good and hot because I'm gonna stink when I burn.  The concentration camps have already been built or are in process or will be built to order per 385 million contract to Haliburton.  I double checked this on Snopes -- found nothing to the contrary.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=American_concentration_camps

"The contract, which [was] effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations (DRO) Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs.

(Such as internment of dissidents.)

Backup links

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/010306gulagsforamericans.htm
http://www.libertyforlife.com/jail-police/us_concentration_camps.htm

You may not blatantly see this stuff in front of you and it is not currently being implemented except in a few cases, but the point is that the machinery is in place and ready to roll.  Bush has already written lots of executive orders giving him power to do this stuff -- even to the point of declaring himself dictator in the event of national emergency, which he is also capable of creating.

[benevolance]

i guess you just need a good anvil and a template so there is no hammer mark when you smash the crap out of it... According to the link it says the passport is still valid and legal if the chip is not working...so if there is no clear visible mark on the passport there is no way they can prove you tampered with it.

I wonder if they have those nasty passports in Canada

[williet]

ALL the information attached to the REAL ID's is a major problem and as we've seen from other government screw-ups like the FEMA mess .... We shouldn't expect any better than that. It IS a real problem for me to accept the government or it's agents just forcing me to surrender anything they want anytime they want it. May have something to do with the aftermath of the War of Northern Aggression that so many of my ancestors lived through... I think some called it Reconstruction......

IF I've done nothing wrong, I still believe it's the place of government / law enforcement to present something called evidence to a judge and get some paperwork ....BEFORE...they intrude into my life.

The Patriot Act, Home Land Security and everything connected to them are as far from America as anything can get. MAYBE .....folks will pay attention to these issues instead of homosexual marriage or the Islamic faith long enough to see what's happening before we loose our freedom completely. If not, I guess Home Land Security will RECONSTRUCT the whole country......

As I'm writing this, they just announced that Bush is selling millions in weapons to the Saudi's....I hope he becomes a sheik when and "IF" we can get rid of him. The way he seems to hate this country and what we stand for, maybe he'd be more "at home" in the middle east ..... 

[peternap]

First let me apologize if the picture that was taken out, offended anyone. I put it in for shock value, not to offend. This is a serious matter though IMHO.

Under the REAL ID law, if you decided to NOT have an ID you couldn't go in government buildings (so what) or fly (so what) or get government benefits like Veterans (That's a little more difficult) or get a passport,etc.

It's an end run though. I could live very well without any of the Government niceties....but....lets use a state example of how things escalate.

In Virginia a drivers license has always been just that. If you got a ticket and didn't pay it, they took your license.   All the suspension laws were for driving offenses...

Then they decided that people who didn't pay child support shouldn't have a license.
Then they decided that people that had court appointed attorneys and lost, couldn't have a license until they reimbursed the court. This is for any type case.
Then they decided that people who drive off without paying for gas shouldn't have a license.

The list keeps getting bigger but it is all because they can track and suspend easily.

The REAL ID's will become necessary for more and more things and then the laws suspending that document will start.

The states will have to share information with each other via the Feds and no matter where you go, you'll be on a leash.

That doesn't bother a lot of people but it just scares the hell out of me!

[benevolance]

Great set of points Peter!

I am reminded about a link I think Glenn showed us a year ago where it is illegal to force people to even get a drivers license and according to the constitution it is also illegal to prevent people from travelling across the country across the roads in America..Even if that means you drive a car....

I would gladly get a team of oxen and get on the interstate to prove the point that it is my right to travel under the constitution....hehe I bet they would love that one.

We get the ID crap now when we fly...I have ran into the problem a bunch on the bus... I buy cars out of state all the time and I bus to the location and drive the car home...And if the bus route crosses federally owned land or anything government or military the greyhound bus has to report to a security station where all passengers are required to validate their identities... First time it happened to me I refused and was thrown off the bus....Outside of Fort Jackson in Columbia South Carolina


So this government ID thing and requirements for using it will expand to all bus and train travel...It will become a defacto law thingy....It is a matter of time.

[glenn kangiser]

I don't need anything to do with the gov. protecting me -or any of their regulations to give them power over me.