Base for Stone Posts

[Rover]

I'd like to build stone 'posts' along my property line.  The 'posts' would be 24" x 24" by 30" made of locally available round stones with concrete.  I estimate the area gets 5' of frost, but it is well draining material.
I've read a couple of books and they say I have to dig down to build a foundation to prevent frost heave.  Call me lazy.  Can't I instead build a small floating slab 6" thick with layer of WWM (welded wire mesh) top and bottom?  Then build the stone feature on top.  It really doesn't mater if it moves around with frost action.

[glenn-k]

Lots of things going for you here that say it is worth a try.  Well drained may take care of it - not caring if it moves a bit is also a plus.  I'd look around a bit and see if similar things are staying put - large boulders - house foundations - sidewalks etc.   At worst you would be out some work and materials if there was a major problem.  You could auger holes underneath - reinforce and pour to ground level then build as you want also if you think it is a problem.  Put a few rebar to tie things together.

BTW -Welcome to the forum.

[bil2054]

Welcome, Rover.
By me, Glenn's suggestion about the auger would be a lazy and good solution.  You can rent one, usually about fifty bucks a day, and zip zap... you have foundation holes.
Here in the Northeast you still see cut granite fence posts, mile markers, etc., some over 200 years old, that certainly do not go down to the four foot frost line.  Most of them lean a bit now, but they're still standing.  Come to think of it, there're grave markers so old they can't be read, but they still stand.  
Stability for a foundation is one thing, where the structure can be damaged by heaving, but if you don't mind a little eventual out of plumb on boundry posts....

Slight edit here.... the aforementioned colonial items DO go into the ground a couple of feet... just not to the modern code depth.

[peg_688]

 #1:  I estimate the area gets 5' of frost, but it is well draining material.


  #2:  I've read a couple of books and they say I have to dig down to build a foundation to prevent frost heave.

 #3:  Call me lazy.

  #4:     Can't I instead build a small floating slab 6" thick with layer of WWM (welded wire mesh) top and bottom?

  #5:     It really doesn't mater if it moves around with frost action.

 #1: Thats alot of frost , heaving will be substantial, IMO.

 #2: I'd follow the books advice , if the author's have creatable back grounds .

 #3:  Ok your lazy Remember you asked , and we like to agree when ever we can  

 #4: You could , but your work will not last IMO for more than your life time when if done on a proper footing it could last 500 (est. ) years or more , unless some one purposely undoes it.

#5: It will not move" evenly" that the problem , so you have answered your own question .

 If it where me I'd rent a auger and bore deep holes 8" in Dia below that frost line and tie my 12" pad to the top of that poured "post" . Or at a miniium bore the hole fill with drain rock pour pad on that.

It would be MO that doing less will result in frost heaving that will topple your stone post in about ten years .

Good Luck , welcome to the forum  , PEG

[jraabe]

Try this freezer test. http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1144161208/4#4

You have to have "fines" - clay or slit in the soil to have frost heave. You have to hold the water in this soil to have frost heave. Drainage and clay can be very local issues different in different parts of your own land - so check the soil.

The vast majority of foundations are built to resist a frost problem that does not exist.

This is not to say foundations should not be built below frostline. They are now built that way because builders and inspectors are very conservative and the consequences of a mistake are very large. However, a good foundation built with proper drainage in the right soil is not likely to experience frost heave no matter what its depth or how deep the local frostline.

Even in nasty very cold clay soil there are things that can be done such as the insulated shallow foundations that the Scandinavians have been building for many many years.

The lazy person does more thinking and less work. Thinking can be done in a chaise lounge with a cold drink!  

[Rover]

Thanks everyone,
since the 'posts' will only be 30" tall and quite wide.  I'll take the chance on the heaving.  Shouldn't be that noticable to the eye.  I plan to create a row of piled rocks running between these poles so it will be a consistent inperfect look.
BTW.  I'm a small guy and got thrown by the last powered auger that hit something solid.

Thanks for the welcoming notes.  I love the forum; been addicted for a few months.  I recently bought 4 acres and am faced with the zoning.  They don't allow anything less than 1,000 sf, the only thing you can build without a permit is a fence, and they don't allow tents or trailers.  So I'll build a fence and plant some trees while designing and looking for money.

[Dberry]

Might be worth checking into the codes further.  While they don't allow trailers, they may allow a trailer or RV for a temporary period while building.  I was told the same thing when I bought my property and checked into it.  The main thing they wanted to avoid here was actual mobile homes being set up and lived in permenantly.  

[Rover]

They would be ok with that only once I obtained a building permit. I think permits might be initially valid for 1 year.  They have covered thier arse real well.  The zoning requires the building to have a certified sanitary system (ie leaching bed) and water supply (ie well).  Any auxilary building has to be built after the main building and further back from the main building.
So much for my idea to build cabin with outhouse.  I can't even hide it because it was formally farm land, hence only few shrubs around.  
Thanks for the info.

[Amanda_931]

From what John says, if your land passes a perk test, you may be fine.

The Really Lazy way to do the posts is to  get some wire--I'd guess 2x4 or even 4x4 welded wire, make a suitably sized circle, then fill it with rocks.  You wouldn't have to tote in water for mortar.

I understand this is traditional in some parts of the West for fence posts.  But your building restrictions people may want them to be covered with roses or something equally water intensive and difficult to grow in zone 3 or wherever you are.  

[Rover]

Excellent idea Amanda,
Can't get much easier than that.  I think it will look just fine.  And yes, I haven't figured out how to easily get water up there, so your suggestion is so practical.
I'll get the soil sample next time I'm up there and try John's frost heave test.
Thanks again.

[Amanda_931]

Still want to level and tamp the area for your base.  Maybe even put some gravel there for the base.