Inspectors

[John Raabe]

Note to Glenn:

How in the world could anyone become disenchanted with a sweet "can't we all just get along" kind of guy like you?  

I hope Manhattan sees fit to stop in once in awhile. He was a great resource and a valuable counter-weight to a disrespectful "string up the inspector" tone that occasionally crops up on this forum.

Building inspectors have a thankless job to do protecting public safety - the public demands more and more of this protection and then doesn't want to pay for it or have it apply to any of their own projects. Every American feels entitled to bad mouth the local bureaucrats, so like I said, it's a thankless job you are blessed not to have.

Also, it's good to remember, inspectors probably have dogs and kids and are no more likely to sprout horns than any of the rest of us.

[glenn kangiser]

Well,  John,    when someone makes comments personally attacking our members, when in reality they haven't even seen that members work, codes were not broken or required and there is a chance that their haughty "god's right hand man-like" attitude may intimidate new or potential new members and customers or stop a timid member from asking a question that they think may be stupid (there are no stupid questions), then I tend to confront them and possibly even pi$$ them off.

I think that there is plenty of time for inspectors to hassle our members after their projects are under way.  At that point they will not be deterred from even learning enough to begin.  I want this to be a place where people are not afraid to ask questions.  There are plenty of other forums where members can get beat on by professionals on ego trips.

When Manhattan can come down from the heavens, keep a civil tongue in his mouth and give our members help without belittling them, he is welcome here.  Most of the inspectors I meet are helpful and courteous.  When he learns to be courteous he is welcome here.  He indicated to me he had no desire to be courteous.

Note that I really do not have any problem with an inspector enforcing codes or helping people out.  I do have a real problem with one who has a bad attitude and makes smart-alec remarks toward our members.  Please note that I carried on a dialogue with him in a friendly manner until his wiseacre holier than thou outburst.  

I also viewed him as a valuable resource until the god-complex came through and it was beneath him to revise his statements.

He is not the only one I have asked to be courteous when posting, and some of them have turned out to be some of our most valuable members.  They are still here.



Rodney King 1991 Courtesy Wikipedia
"Can we get along here? Can we all get along?"

Here is the section of Manhattan's post that I considered out of line.  I left it as an example of the ego's and attitudes our members may have to deal with on their projects after consulting with Hal as to his feelings on the matter.  Since this was not the first time he had been on the edge of rudeness (I considered this over the edge) I confronted him about it.

But as with Hal and his amateur structural alterations to his ceiling structure (which may likely have no net positive effect on the structural stability of his ceiling and actually created more structural problems than it will solve).... rather than do things right....some insist on doing things half-assed even when the end result may be worse than if they did nothing at all...because in their minds they have 'saved' a buck...and have overlooked the fact it may cost them more in the long run by actually have done it wrong. <shrugs>

I'm called in all the time as a professional builder to repair such silliness.

You can lead a horse to the trough but if he just won't drink....(because it's his house and he values ignorance and blindness over knowledge and enlightenment)....he'll just end up knee-deep in recycled oats.

And that's his perogative.

Comments and attitude like this are exactly where the "string up the inspector" feelings are fostered.

Note that he is not blocked from posting here.  It was his choice to not return if he couldn't make any kind of rude , belittling remarks that he wanted and if I wouldn't prevent other members and myself from responding to him disrespectfully after he made his - in my opinion - smart-alec comments.  In his opinion, he stated (email) that we are the blind leading the blind.  

Any other comments or opinions on the Manhattan Project?

[bartholomew]

I wasn't too surprised by his outburst. He briefly posted on the Home Repair Forums until getting into a similar dispute over someone else's selfish installation of spiral stairs, thereby flaunting the law and risking the safety of others. I don't think he was blocked there either but that was the last post of his I've seen, over a year ago.

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks, Bart.  I thought maybe it was just me. :-/

[n74tg]

Relating to the "Manhattan Project" -- I'm just glad no one here has access to weapons grade nuclear material.

Life is short; laugh often.  

[glenn kangiser]

I try to restrain myself. :-/  ......most of the time


Note:  We have an opening on the forum for a nice inspector who's not on an ego trip and is willing to help others.  We won't beat you up.  Really.

[Mommymem]

I have been working with our local inspectors for about a year now bugging them with questions and information gathering before we brought in our plans and permit application. There are 2 inspectors in the office and I now get harrassed by both of them. Friendly of course. The one I work with most said he's no longer going to get up from his desk to help me cuz I'm just loitering and the other one offered me my own desk since I seem to be in there all the time

It has helped that I have developed this friendlyness with the inspectors. I've even been in line with 3-4 other male GC's and they've ignored them to chat with me. Maybe its because I'm female or maybe its just because I'm nice and thankful that they are so helpful with our project.

It certainly doesn't hurt to make nice with the inspectors. But I know you can't always win everyone over...

[glenn kangiser]

I decided to bring this over here and start a new topic on it.

How about a few ratings and comments on your inspectors as you deal with them on your jobs.  Lets get a general feel for what's going on out there.

As I have stated before, I get along well with most inspectors.  Most are very helpful and will give tips and explanations of why things are how they are.  They are good public servants.

At our county office, one of the clerks occasionally gets on a power high.  I had to nearly force her to let me talk to the inspector.  He had told me I could call any time with questions but she turned on the red tape machine and insisted on scheduling an inspection.  Once I told her "He told me I could call with questions anytime, and you will put me through to him", rather firmly, she saw I meant business --was tired of her crap and she put me through.  An inspection was not required before I put the rock in the trench.  There were cattle running around loose there and due to weather we didn't want more trench open than we could finish the drain field in.  Depth of rock was shown with a steel probe and inspection pipe ports at the end of the drain field.

[glenn kangiser]

There you go. Mommymem.  That's what I'm talking about.

Note---I'd also ignore the guys in line first and chat with you.  That is why Daddymem is so smart--he sends you.  He'd probably have to wait a few extra hours and really get hassled .

[John Raabe]

Thanks for clearing that up guys. I hadn't seen all the background.

Manhattan has made some valuable posts in the past but Glenn is absolutely right - calling a person on rudeness to others is an obligation on a board such as this. Otherwise things can quickly descend into hurt feelings and name calling. That will destroy the open community environment we have all worked to maintain.

I want us to be open to someone with the perspective and experience of a building inspector. That's what I was trying to say in my post.

But basic tact and human respect has to come to the table along with the opinions, however strong they might be.

I support you all the way Glenn - you have a great balance of experience, opinion, humor and humanity. We could all learn from that. It can be hard some days to keep that perspective.

I can imagine someone might have to take some crap at work and could be fuming by the time they get on-line. In such cases it is probably not a good idea to take that frustration out on another poster.   - it isn't fair to them and it will likely be something you will later regret.

I don't know if that is what happened but I would encourage a clearing of the air if that might help bring a member back into the circle.

Gzeez - even the Royal I sometimes says the wrong thing.  

[deertracks]

Glenn
GO GLENN! I'm sure all the folks on this site looking for help are greatful to you for standing up to the "power trip" types. There's always a nice way to use your experience in helping people. Nastiness gets a person nowhere. My husband has scanned over old forums in searching for things he needed help on. Funny thing... he noticed right off that a couple people get on their high horse and he told me he usually skips over their comments. Their holier than tho attitude makes you question just how smart they are. Usually people that feel inferior have to build themselves up by tearing someone else down. If we all stick together we can run the bullies off! After all I view this site as a real moral booster for folks at every stage of their project.
deertracks

[glenn kangiser]

I tried very nicely to deal with Manhattan - I told him all I asked was that he use tact and treat our members nicely.  

My comment to him via e-mail.

>I have no problem with the real value of the advice you give.

> I only have a
> problem with the condescending attitude and belittling of members.
>  Please
> at least try to be a nice person.  If you use some tact at
least
> they will
> listen to you instead of ignore you.  Pretend you are a nice
guy
> like you
> would if you were in church.  Love thy neighbor.
>
> I'm leaving it stand as is.  I value your input as there is
no
> doubt that
> you are knowledgable.  Please treat our people nicely is all
I ask.


His first reply.

> >You may feel free to do whatever you wish with my comments.
They
> >are totally accurate and relevant to the poor advice Hal received
> >regarding his structural problem.
> >
> >A major flaw with the country plans forum, like other forums
> >of its type, is that it is filled with blind guides leading
the
> >blind. Amateurs with no real construction knowledge, and when
> >corrected, they run like chastened children crying to their
mama
> >because someone with accurate knowledge set them straight.
> >
> >The problem is not with me or my comments.
> >
> >The problem is with those in the forum, including moderators,
> >who are not interested in building safely or knowledgably,
but
> >cheaply. Rebels without a cause, without thought for the safety
> >of themselves or others who may have to unfortunately own
their
> >shoddily built structures in the future.
> >
> >Doesn't matter to me what you do with my postings. They have
> >been technically accurate from both a professional building
and
> >code enforcement position and I have nothing to retract.
> >
> >If the inmates want control of the asylum, then let tham have
> >it.
> >
> >I've been but one lone voice of sanity, rationality, and truth
> >amongst all the din and cackle and even open paranoia of unbalanced
> >thinking and advice otherwise given.
> >
> >mahattan42


Too bad the lone voice of sanity is so rude and tactless. Sorry to say he is just not a nice person, is unbending and infallible and his ego is much larger than he is.  

Fortunately as I have stated before, I have no ego to get in the way of my knowledge and sound judgement and no matter what, I'm always a nice guy. .......... :-/

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks so much for your posting, Deertracks.  I appreciate comments like yours so that I may get a feel for what the members here want to see.  I'm such a good public servant.

My second flight instructor told me he had noticed that I "surrounded myself with people who were good for me" --quoting his comment.  He hadn't noticed that I run off the ones who are bad for me.  

I treat people like they treat me.  They treat me nice-- I treat them nice.  They treat me mean -- I show them what mean and nasty is all about --- even if I have to put on an act.  I find that when I do this, many times  they see their bluff is called and they become agreeable.  Sometimes there is not much of a solution.  Nukes---anybody?

[nandajor]

Glenn, John and all... This is an interesting thread. I admit that I hate to catch even a whiff of discord, in what I consider to be a paradise for adventurous DYI folks.  However, I am right up there on the homemade scaffolds with you all. Rudeness makes a horse's behind of even the most righteous and knowledgable person.  The poor ole' hubby is such a good man, but unfortunately has a quick temper and often, what's floating around in that intelligent head of his, just comes spilling right out.  He has so often had to apologize (a trait I admire, his willingness to admit his mistake), not because he was not right, but because he was so wrong in the way he let somebody know. There is a way to let someone know your opinion without stomping around on thiers.  Even though, I think any of us would more than welcome expert advice, this forum is no place for an "expert" who obviously has the mindset, that folks who try to create their own living spaces...using their minds to research and learn, their hands and backs to work hard, and their American ingenuity to save some dollars...are dangerous idiots.  I would even venture to say, most folks who build their own houses, have better built than the norm.  John & I have never cut safety corners in order to save a dime.  No one wants to work as hard as we DYI-ers do, and have our house fall down around us, or have no value in the future. I find most to be extremely concientious about finding out the RIGHT way to do things. I think we would all agree that some "standards" are overboard or arbitrary, but we usually attempt to fall in there, pretty darn close.  The kind of "experts" this forum needs are the ones that have learned from lots of hands on experience and appreciate the efforts of the Do It Yourself Home Builder to have a home or cabin or retreat, that fits their dream spec.s and doesn't leave them broke.  

As we recently discovered in Colorado, the inspectors are numerous and their little stamp of approval cost some bucks.  Some welcome you with a smile and a hand-shake and some make you feel like the bad child in front of the school principal.  You just stand tall & confidently, with your plans in your hands, whether they are clean professional or pencil drawings on paper, smile and say, "Yes, sir, we can do that".  And then go out and do your best to do IT! Because, in America, we have a right to own land and build our own houses. They can look, question, require, charge fees, cluck their tonques, frown and withhold their little stamps.  But, we will win in the end, we will build our houses on our land.  And those houses will in reality, fall somewhere between their standards of perfection and our will and ability to achieve it.   There, I said it and I am glad!

[John_M]

In planning the construction of my cabin, I found my building inspector to be quite pleasant and professional.  We live an hour north of our cabin site (Western New York), so I am certainly not a "local".  

My approach in dealing with him was to ask good, intelligent questions and basically do what he expected me too.  It was very easy to get my building permit after showing him exactly what I was going to build and how each major stage met all local codes.

Now that he knows the type of person I am, he doesn't seem concerned with my structure and it's quality.  He said he may occasionally stop by and check it out.

You don't want to burn bridges with the inspector.  He should also repsect you and your building knowledge as well.  It, like any good relationship, is a two way street!!

[glenn kangiser]

In dealing with and talking to inspectors, you will sometimes find that they have one particular little pet peeve.  If you pay particular attention to that and do good on the rest things usually go pretty smooth.

Speaking of a special inspector for welding where we are making hundreds of welds on a job, another welder came to me really frustrated because no matter what he did, he couldn't keep from having to go back and repair welds.  I had worked with that inspector for a while and explained to him that that inspector was one who in my opinion felt it was his duty to go to the job and find 5 to 10% of the welds had problems.  A bump here - a roll there -- undersize there---but not consistantly.  One could be marked bad but another that looked exactly the same would be fine.  I told him just to repair whatever was marked and don't worry about it.  As long as he marked something and we fixed it he felt his job was justified.  

I honestly didn't have any problem with that.  He was easy as long as we played the game.  Arguing  with him didn't accomplish anything as his reasons were inconsistant since nearly all welds were pretty good.  Of course there was the occasional problem that really did need to be fixed.  That's why he was there.

Other companies on the job really needed him though.  One was so terrible that I agreed that he should be marking nearly all of their welds and in fact he was justified in kicking them off of the job, which he did.

[n74tg]

Hey Glenn:
What happened to your FIRST flight instructor

N74TG
Private, instrument, competition aerobatics certified (Super Decathlon & Pitts Special)

[glenn kangiser]

She retired before she finished me off.  She had forgot a lot of things she should have taught me.  The one who took over was a ex-USAF pilot- he drilled it into me.  He was great.

My third instructor did my instrument and commercial.  Kathy Gray  - aerobatics pilot also - She flew "Freedom" - America's smallest jet - also the same as the Coors Silver Bullet jet.  She was very good - took me up in a storm to show me what it was like to get the plane loaded up with ice.  I even unintentionally used that training later. :-/

[Dberry]

How many pilots are here?  I never finished my license, but I soloed a few times in a 152.   Then kids came along and my choice was diapers and braces or $60 an hour to fly the friendly skies.  

My daughter has straight teeth...  

[glenn kangiser]

Patty is a helicopter pilot - must have done fixed wing too.

[Texan lost in cali]

We have a old saying for people who git in tha way in Texas..... git a rope

[glenn kangiser]

I think that only works in theory-- In reality we have to deal with these guys and while there is an occasional jerk, most of them are pretty good and are willing to clue ower builders in a bit.

Our health department inspectors here are by the book, but very helpful on septic systems.