land survey

Cougr67 · October 04, 2013, 01:08:58 AM

Made an offer on a small piece of of land near Prescott arizona. The owner accepted and we are going thru our"due diligence"before final signature. Had the sceptic contractor out on site today to make sure we can fit a system on this half acre and comply with all the set backs etc. He is very familiar with the area and the adjacent owners. He showed us where our lot lines are which correlate to what the Realtor told us as well. We started comparing the county plot maps and all of a sudden these lot lines make no sense. I believe these plot lines are a good 60 feet off. I have no problem paying for a survey and will before signing but I am not sure I want to get in the middle of a land war either.
If I am right the adjacent owner is going to lose his prime building pad that he paid a bunch of money to be excavated. If it is surveyed inside my property lines I will want it and he is not going to be happy.

Any advice?

Tickhill · October 04, 2013, 05:53:17 AM

A survey is the only way to go, but take it from me, inform ALL joining landowners that you are fixing to do a survey and that they are welcome to be there (not interfere or offer advice). Any offended party will eventually be glad that you did your due diligence even if they did not do theirs.
I would suggest getting a 3' long by 3/4" piece of re-bar for each property corner, this is to drive well below ground level so you can find your corner with a metal detector should the visible corner markers some how "disappear".
Also use a surveyor that uses GPS equipment and that they are willing to appear in a court of law if the need arises, some surveyors that are not fully confident in their surveys will usually add this as a disclaimer just before they get their equipment out of the truck!
Take pictures of each property corner with markers in place.
Make sure the surveyor gets you a large plat suitable for framing, maybe a 24 x 18 and hang it on the wall, alot easier to see and use if the need arises.
Good luck.

October 04, 2013, 09:05:03 AM

I agree with what Tickhill posted especially marking in case the surveyors pins go missing. Nothing protects them from being removed or moved. They are not a government survey bench mark which is protected. Most places a surveyors pins not protected by law. So place your own and bury them and take photos just in case.

As far as your might be future neighbor talk to him and ask him if you knows that he is very likely out of bounds. You have intent of purchase and see if he wants to buy the lot from you.

I assume you have earnest money down?

Cougr67 · October 04, 2013, 04:17:59 PM

Thanks Tick and Rick. Good advice I think
I will let you know what happens after the survey. Could be interesting

mwhutch · October 05, 2013, 10:43:48 PM

As a licensed surveyor in South Carolina I can hopefully be of some assistance. The GPS should not be an issue whether or not the company has one, we have one but use it for only certain applications(GPS is not more accurate than a total station). The county maps are just an approximation and should have a disclaimer of accuracy (it's just mapping grade software and are sketched in to +/- 30 meters accuracy). The pins placed by a registered land surveyor are protected by a court of law based on simple math recorded in a court house record, if previous survey has been recorded in a deed reference. Questions I would ask the survey company involve a basic understanding in written document of contract of extent of work, example, if you choose to have your lines marked and verified on the ground, a new record-able copy of the tract of land in question and all improvements located and mapped,(side bar: get them to locate possible drives, trees to save, a plan for future development, anything of particular interest) Get a quote in writing ;have them list a break down on all possible wants and needs and you decide on the scope of work you desire. The company should be able to put in more permanent witness posts, we recommend T-posts painted, but you could do it cheaper. I would say any professional company would not have a problem doing this.

October 06, 2013, 06:09:42 AM

Quote from: mwhutch on October 05, 2013, 10:43:48 PM
As a licensed surveyor in South Carolina I can hopefully be of some assistance. The GPS should not be an issue whether or not the company has one, we have one but use it for only certain applications(GPS is not more accurate than a total station). The county maps are just an approximation and should have a disclaimer of accuracy (it's just mapping grade software and are sketched in to +/- 30 meters accuracy). The pins placed by a registered land surveyor are protected by a court of law based on simple math recorded in a court house record, if previous survey has been recorded in a deed reference. Questions I would ask the survey company involve a basic understanding in written document of contract of extent of work, example, if you choose to have your lines marked and verified on the ground, a new record-able copy of the tract of land in question and all improvements located and mapped,(side bar: get them to locate possible drives, trees to save, a plan for future development, anything of particular interest) Get a quote in writing ;have them list a break down on all possible wants and needs and you decide on the scope of work you desire. The company should be able to put in more permanent witness posts, we recommend T-posts painted, but you could do it cheaper. I would say any professional company would not have a problem doing this.

The surveyor we have used a couple times has told me the same thing about GPS and 'county mapping' which triggered us having to get a survey and settle a property line issue. That was three years or four ago. And I agree with what you write about the survey must be recorded. We did that for him and filed it in our county. Then also ran him a copy of the recorded survey to his office so he would not have to make the 100 mile round trip as his office is several counties away but close to where we lived at the time.

However I do not know how you stop people especially impassioned people from pulling t posts, survey pins and makers and repining them or tossing them or burying them. Here in Idaho according to the surveyor we have used twice and he has told us both times. That at least here in Idaho he says, "We drive away from this spot nothing protects those markers. They can be removed and tossed in the creek if some one is upset and most likely they will be." The survey is protected by law not the markers.

firefox · October 06, 2013, 12:25:29 PM

If I was concerned that someone would deliberately remove the marker, then this is what I would do:
Take a measueing tape and measure out a random length from the marker along the property line. at that point drive a piece of rebar down and then use something to drive it an aditional 3 feet. remove the tool. Now measure out three more feet along the same line from the rebar you just planted. Repeat the procedure. Record the random length on the map. do the same on the other legs of the survey.
Leave cheap markers at the actual survey points.

If the survey markers disapear, use a metal detector to find your two buried rebars.
then stretch out your tape from the two rebars back to the survey point.

the reason for two rebars is to establish the exact lay of the line back to the survey point
and for redundancy. I suggest the random length be somewhere around 20 feet, but this would be determined by local conditions.

Be sure to clean away evidence of your work.

Bruce

Cougr67 · October 19, 2013, 05:39:10 PM

Got the survey done on Thursday and just as I suspected the property lines goes right thru my neighbors building spot. In fact about 2/3 of his building spot and his 10x12 shed is on my side of the line.

I had talked with the neighbor before I did the survey and he didn't seem to be real concerned and just to let him know what I find out and we will deal with it from there. So I emailed him the pictures of the correct property line then we met over a beer to discuss it. In the end he is looking to sell the property anyway and offered to sell it to me for a reasonable price. (considerably less than I am paying for the first lot). We haven't finalized it yet but I am confident that I will end up with both lots.

Other than the added expense I think there is a lot more positives than negatives to owning a larger piece of land

So now I have questions about buying land without the aid of a realtor.
The owner received this land from his father who bought it in 1978. I have seen the deed and even the bill of sale from 1978. I feel real comfortable that this guy is honest and not out to screw me but I do want to take reasonable precaution to protect myself.

I plan on using one of the online legal document sites to produce a proper Warranty Deed.
I feel I should have a title company do a title search to make sure the are no outstanding liens etc. Do you agree?
Title insurance I am not sure about. the sale price is only 15K and from a local Title Company they figure Title Insurance could be $600-$700. That is a lot of money if all they are going to insure is 15K. or is there more to it than that?
Anything else I should be thinking about?
Thanks

Tickhill · October 20, 2013, 05:30:58 AM

Don't let your due diligence stop now, I would utilize the services of a lawyer that I know or one that comes highly recommended from friends, especially in the area of property/deeds. Like a good fence, good legal documents concerning your property make good neighbors.

October 21, 2013, 07:56:16 PM

You can also check with the county clerk's office to see how the property is recorded and if there are liens.

And I do agree that a good lawyer who specializes in land and real estate is a good idea. They know what to look for.

And you would want a recent survey of the property; the line was off on your side, what about the other boundaries that define the property?

Cougr67 · October 24, 2013, 01:15:50 AM

Went ahead with the title search and insurance. Not cheap but worth the peace of mind I guess.
The other borders of this property are outlined by roads so I am concerned about the other property lines.

Now that I think I have the property issues ironed out I can start working on building and floor plans

thanks for the advice guys!

rick91351 · October 24, 2013, 07:08:49 AM

You look at title insurance one way it is not cheap - you look at it the other way it is sure money well spent. Especially this day and age when everything is mortgaged to the hilt.

hpinson · October 25, 2013, 08:16:41 PM

Yes, by all means get the Warranty Deed, do the title search, and if the boundary is in dispute in any way, get the title insurance.

It sounds like you came to a solution, but just wanted to say we had a very similar problem. Boundaries were way off, with several abutting neighbors who stood to loose or gain. We suspected a boundary went right through a neighbor's existing garage, and this turned out to be true. We ended up quitclaiming about an acre to that neighbor. Another neighbor lost some unusable land, cliff face actually, and was not to happy about that, but I think that is water under the bridge now. A third abutter gained some acreage but is absentee and that land has since changed hands so no worry there. Altogether we neither lost nor gained on the advertised acreage, which surprised me. It is nice to have the metal survey stakes in place now so that if we were ever to sell, this would be much easier.

I have to say that the real estate agent earned his commission negotiating all this. The survey was VERY expensive, and the seller paid for that thank goodness -- however I don't think the property ever would have been sold without the survey being done -- someone HAD to do it if the property were to change hands.

Quitclaim deeding is really a useful tool when in this situation.

considerations · October 26, 2013, 08:52:44 AM

Sounds like thing are turning out well. I have witnessed some that did not. I am an advocate of evey rural property sale including a survey, no matter who pays. That is as valuable as title insurance.

Cougr67 · October 26, 2013, 07:44:42 PM

We had a hard time finding a title company to just do the title insurance without being involved in the money exchange (escrow) . we ended up going thru a friend of a friend that works for a title company and was able to do just a warranty deed with the seller and the insurance separate. That brought the price way down. We only paid $385 to the title company this way instead of the $800 others wanted.