totally of the grid

[swampbuck]

Is being totally off the grid really possible,and at what cost?
I was thinking of building a totally off the grid cabin on my 80ac in TN.. The problem for me seems to be the initial cost of possible solar wind or pretty much anything green.. What is the average break even point 10,15,20 years.. Is it really worth it?  what will my wife and I have to sacrifice? we are still going to want all the creature comforts.. IE: most appliances and washer dryer I think a wood burner will be fine for heat and maybe a small window unit for warmer days and nights..

Am I asking too much?

Or am I thinking of this all wrong?

It has been a dream of mine for awhile to be off the grid, is it really as daunting as it seems?

[Rob_O]

There is no simple answer to your questions without a full load analysis. How much you are willing to run a generator also has a huge affect on the initial cost.

As a simple answer I'll say you will need to spend $10K to $15K on your solar system and a generator to have "all the comforts of home". How does that compare to the cost of having lines run to your place?

[MountainDon]

Yes being off grid is possible. It depends on how much electrical power you use, how much electrical you can or want to divert to other forms of energy (propane?) and how much money you can throw at the project.

I can't help with the money    but can help on estimating what you need.

First it is possible to use propane for refrigeration, cooking and water heating. But that is simply shifting from one seller to another.

Second. You can have a system that is totally independent and self supporting, or you can tie into the grid. Grid tie eliminates the need for batteries, but then you are not independent. Grid tie is simply a way to use solar and reduce or eliminate the monthly power company bill. I assume you mean fully off grid, no intertie at all.

So the place to start is with an honest estimation of your power needs. There is a calculator HERE that may help you in totaling things up. It can also calculate number of batteries and PV modules needed.

Making use of solar heaters for hot water instead of electric or propane is also very helpful for going off grid. There are storage type water heaters that come with the required fluid coils for using a solar heater to preheat or fully heat one's hot water needs. I know of someone with one who never has to use propane for water heating except for in winter.

Also if you will be wanting some A/C, split-mini heat pumps are much more energy efficient than the typical window box air conditioner.

If most of what you have in the existing home will be used in the new one you can also use that as a starting point for what your power needs will be. Of course a new build could reduce that if it is more energy efficient. If you use wood heat you'd have that covered, but if you need A/C you'd still want to insulate and seal well. You might need an energy efficient air exchanger if well sealed though.




Just FYI, without making any drastic changes to our energy use here at home (read that as we do leave lights on at times when we should not) we would need to buy approximately $17K worth of equipment to grid tie and have a zero monthly electrical bill. That's electric cooking and clothes dryer, but not counting any heating other than the furnace fans. And only counting minimal A/C use. The good news is that is down from over 422K a year ago. That does not include batteries though, which could easily add $8 to 10K to the total.

If I was building a new home though I believe I could cut the hardware costs by building better and smaller.


I'd like to add that personally I look to size and build the system so that under normal use the generator is not needed at all. The generator, to me, is simply insurance for those times that exceptionally bad weather hangs around. (Like the past 2 weeks here have had about 10 cloudy days which is unusual). The generator is also useful for some maintenance things like battery equalizing. But I'd hate to depend on it as something that needed to be run weekly for a few hours. But that may just be me. And as far as generators go, if this is to be the principle residence, I would want a generator set up with automatic starting. That is, the system starts and stops it as it is needed. A propane fueled auto start generator eliminates the worries about liquid fuels and their potential for deterioration over time as well as fuel system gumming up (gasoline carburetors).  I'd like to keep the owner maintenance required to a minimum. Again, maybe that's just me.

[swampbuck]

There is no simple answer to your questions without a full load analysis. How much you are willing to run a generator also has a huge affect on the initial cost.

As a simple answer I'll say you will need to spend $10K to $15K on your solar system and a generator to have "all the comforts of home". How does that compare to the cost of having lines run to your place?

Have not checked into the cost of running power yet.I guess that would depend on how far off the rd we get,there is power on the gravel rd. And mainly would used a propane or nat gas gen as a back up.. I need to do lots more research and would love to physically look at some off the grid homes and talk to the owners.

I the end I may end up with a conventionally built cabin and propane generac for back up...

[swampbuck]

And MountainDon thanks for the info.

[cmsilvay]

This is a blog of a person I know personally he is off grid by choice and a great guy. He is as basic as you can get. He runs a internet bussiness from his homestead so his needs are realistic.
http://cedarshillfarm.com/taxonomy/term/6

[glenn kangiser]

We are totally off grid unless you count the phone line.

We have all the things we want electrically except we do not use a a/c unit.  2 refrigerators - 2 freezers, Computers, water pump about 800 gpd in the summer, DSL, washer, propane dryer.

Dave Sparks is also.  He has a good a/c unit.  Lots of variables.  Our info is on the forum in various places.

Rough guess on break even ?  20-30 years --- totally depends on circumstances.

[Squirl]

Like many have said, there are many variables.
 
It depends on how much of it you do yourself.

It depends on inflation.

It depends on how much it costs to run electricity.

It depends on how wasteful of energy habits you may already have.

It depends on how big your cabin is.

These were some of the main factors when I considered it for myself.  I currently only have enough for lighting, radio, and laptop.  I plan on adding enough for water pumping and refrigeration.  My place is in a far northern climate so I don't have to worry about A/C.  Electric heat is generally a waste no matter what climate you are in. One of the many factors that people don't consider with a break even analysis is the time value of money.  Current investments that I hold are paying garbage interest rates. Meanwhile, energy keeps far outpacing them in inflation.  If this continues as it has been for many years, it will change the equation dramatically.

[Okie_Bob]

You might also want to consider wind energy but, not sure you can in TN. Go to Bergy Wind Generator website as they build mainly for the consumer market so have smaller systems you can install yourself.

[Alan Gage]

When I got my little place out in the country a few years ago I thought real hard about putting in wind energy but from a fiscal and practical point of view it just didn't work out.

My electric usage is very small (roughly 40kwh/month) and I shouldn't have any problem generating that much. But since I use such a small amount of electricity my electric bill is very low too so the payback would be very long.

By the time you figure the turbine, tower (figure same cost as turbine) and battery pack you're looking at a pretty good investment and one that will require some upkeep (batteries aren't cheap and don't last forever). If something should go wrong (something gets broken in high wind) you just increased your payback time and don't have electricity while you're repairing whatever broke.

I thought about staying connected to the grid just for a backup but the electric company charges a $30 minimum every month just to be hooked up so in that case I'd only save $4/month (my actual electric usage) and I'd never get a payback on wind power. Even if totally off grid the most I could hope to save per month is $35-40

The power company may buy back the extra energy you produce but at least in Iowa they only have to pay wholesale price (about 2 cents/kwh) as opposed to retail (10 cents/kwh), so it's not like you're going to make a bunch of money there.

I totally respect anyone that goes totally off grid and I'm sure there are ways to make it work. It just wasn't worth it for me. When I was researching this one of the websites that was pro wind energy but wasn't blind to the facts said straight out, "if you can connect to the grid that's the cheapest way to get electricity."

Alan

[considerations]

I'm off the grid, and during this winter which is staying fairly wet and cold, I'm running the generator a lot. Even so, I don't plan to hook to the grid in the foreseeable future.

Granted I don't have enough solar panels yet to fully supply my summer usage, and that means even less in the winter.  However, I intend to keep increasing the power generation capacity incrementally and continue to look for ways more to generate power.  During this period, I'm learning a lot about what I need vs. want that requires some form of power.   

I'm not maniacal about getting off of fossil fuels, but I do think we are going to see some fairly profound changes in our grid supply of electricity, which is my main motivation for staying off of it.

Anyway, my "experimenting" only impacts me, no partners or children to benefit or suffer during the learning curve.