1.5 Story In Kentucky

[MountainDon]

Wow! That ground is saturated big time! The last time I saw something like that was when the flood waters were retreating from the sandbag dikes we built around a friend's home.

That is a serious water problem. If that is the norm for springtime you need more than simple bracing to keep the building plumb and level, IMO.

How deep down is the ground saturated like that?

[prohomesteader]

the deepest we went was about 2 feet in one hole.  when you get down that deep there is no water initially, but if you leave the hole there for 10 minutes and check it again it will be slowly getting a puddle at the bottom.  the dirt at two feet fresh out on the shovel is moist.  not sure how far down that goes but that's it at 2 feet

we have a general contractor coming by tomorrow at 5 to look at it and see what he thinks, having someone else actually standing in the mud and seeing the lean in person might give us a better idea of the direction to take.

yes it's probably like this every spring I'm assuming.  we haven't seen the spring rain yet either, and that video shows the water with no rain in about a week and no snow melting for just as long, just runnoff from the snow that melted and a small amount of rain.

We are still unsure about the direction we are taking other then adding more braces tomorrow and talking to the contractor.

There are many good and very much appreciated suggestions here but we don't want to hurt ourselves and want to invest our time and resources wisely so we are proceeding with caution right now.

[MountainDon]

Best of luck on what the contractor has to say, prohomesteader.

[diyfrank]

I hope he treats you right pro.  It does look wet!

[devildog]

hi PRO, sorry about your troubles. I wanted to say that I thought r8tingbulls idea sounds really good, your house is high enough off the ground that you could jack it up, reset the post w/ concrete and then use a transit and cut the post level atsay afoot lower and then lower back down. Im sure its easier said than done, Im also not an expert, but watching closely hoping you get it worked out.

[prohomesteader]

thanks all.  got stood up by the contractor this evening.

still thinking of moving to higher ground.  the only thing worse than your house leaning is investing a bunch to fix it the leaning house, then paying $6000 to put a septic in there, plus more to finish it there, just to have it lean again and decide in a couple years we should have moved it to better ground.

I'll keep you updated.

[peteh2833]

Lets us know if the contractor ever shows up and what he says. Pete

[Don_P]

If the posts are braced then the lateral stability, the sway bracing, of the foundation is restrained by the braces, of know strength. Unbraced, the lateral stability of the foundation is dependent on the soil to keep the posts from leaning, a big unknown. Add the leverage of tall posts and the need for more sway bracing grows.

If you brace the posts wherever you end up then they will not lean, they may sink but that is a footing matter. If you rely on the soil to provide the stability to the foundation then the results are going to be variable.

If you do much more on your own, the girder/post connection is looking a little iffy if you do much jostling. Another post or a section of scrap channel bolted across the joint might help reinforce it from rolling.


I assume septic is down in front where the river ganges is heading... how did it perc?

[prohomesteader]

The wife and I decided to rebuild on higher ground.

We decided to build a 200sqft home for temporary housing using mostly salvaged material from the leaning house.

We'll build it at the top of the hill

We will add a strawbale addition to it later in the year (maybe 800sqft).  We'd like to build a strawbale home 100% from start but we want to get out on the land sooner than later.

I'll probably start on the tinyhouse early next week.

Thanks all for the suggestions and support.

[peteh2833]

Did the contractor show up? Keep us updated. Will you be able to use most of the wood from the currect structure? Pete

[r8ingbull]

Sorry to hear that.  Just remember, no matter where you build you need concrete and bracing.  I'm sure this structure on top of that hill would be leaning just the same.

Let us know how it goes....

[diyfrank]

Wow.. too bad. What a loss!
No interest in moving what you have to higher ground.
Maybe put it on skids. Drag it, then reset?
If I didn't live so far away, I would be there helping.

[prohomesteader]

@peteh2833 - the contractor never showed up.  I did call about two dozen civil engineers, structural engineers, home builders assocations, inspectors, foundation companies, etc.

I had one question

"can I pay you to come out to my property and test the location I have a house and make a foundation recommendation for it"

We were trying to figure out if the ground was worth keeping the house there to even start to fix it there.  NONE of those people would do it.  The people you need are a "geotechnical engineer".

They are really hard to find and when you do they are EXPENSIVE.  $2500 is the cheapest we could get one to showup for and do the drilling to test the earth below the house and said nobody would make a recommendation on a foundation depth and type without doing some drilling and knowing what was under everything.

They also said most residential developers DON'T do soil and ground research.

- not sure if all the wood is salvageable but we'll do our best

@r8ingbull  - oh yeah, we'll be using tons of bracing and using concrete footers.  For the 200sqft we'll probably use sonotube 10inch wide concrete footers and set the posts on top of them.  For the strawbale we'll probably do a poured footer crawl space.

@diyfrank - We learned a ton about ourselves and about building and had a blast doing it plus we have tons of salvagable wood there.  No loss for us   

[MountainDon]

.... we'll probably use sonotube 10inch wide concrete footers and set the posts on top of them. 

Just to clarify some terms....  A round sonotube "thing" is not a footer.

For a post or pier the footer is the pad at the bottom of the hole, usually poured concrete, of no less than 16" x 16" x 8" thick, with 1/2" rebar set in it.

Some folks like to use the Bigfoot. A sonotube is inserted into the molded end and the whole thing can be poured at once.

The footer is what distributes the load of the building over a larger area than is possible with just a pier/post. That's is what you need to have to avoid sinking.

[diyfrank]

Pro, You can look up your soil type here.
http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/
Hit the green button and select your area.
Here is a report from my place.


You can build there. It's more of a matter of having a suitable foundation.
The Bigfoot system Don mentioned is a pretty stout way to go. you also need to probe the ground your footings will set on. If its still soft you will have to dig down till you have a solid base.
The water is no big deal. Half of America is built on wet ground.  You need to gain control of the problem. A proper french drain should do that. As I said earlier, You need to be below the footings and uphill 5'-10'
Place a perforated pipe in the bottom and fill the trench with drain rock.  Geo techs are required on all the jobs Ive worked on if dirt is cut and filled. The bank will want documentation. If no fill is placed, It's only if you want an analysis done.
I wouldn't say your ground is bad from what I've seen you post.
#1 Your post holes where over dug.
#2 They were filled in with an excessive amount of rock.
#3 You had no bracing on the structure
#4 bad weather hit and caught you unprepared.
lessons learned for everyone following your project.

[FrankInWI]

I'm late coming to this dramatic sage.... OMG, I'm so sorry this happened to you.  I am not so experienced like The Great Glenn (sincere) and many here, but I've done some.  Personally.... I'd fix it where it is.  The bottom line seems to be what one of the others said.  If you get everything back to fairly good square and level, and have the posts re-set in concrete with a broader footing, and then you tie it all together with bracing.... it ain't going anywhere!  A little sinking can always be caught....jacked up and shimmed.   

With chains, jacks and come-alongs or winches, you can do tremendous things.  You did great building this place, you're logic and the guidance here would help you set that thing straight.   Again..... what I think you'd be left with is a very sturdy building with a little up/down susceptibility at worst.   

I bought a 1930s balloon wall bungalow back in the 80's.  The side walls of the house were bowing out.  The multi-layered shingled roof had too few collar beams in the attic (that had a 3 of 4' knee wall and one dormed out corner for future expansion).  The rafters were pushing the walls out, literally ripping the studs out of the floor joists.   

I had three or four come-alongs across the attic pulling steel L brackets draped over the top of the knee walls...between the rafters.   
I bolted the ends of chain from rafters on one side across to the other creating a saddle.   
I used auto floor jacks to jack up a vertical 4X4 post to push up against a horizontal 4X4 post lying under the chain bridging across the rafters. 
Little by little I put pressure on everything.  A little upward pressure on the jacks.  A little horizontal pull on the come-alongs. 
I pushed the whole roof up.....and brought the walls together....easily.  It took hours to set up, and a very short time to these major parts of the building back to where they were supposed to be. 
Having been a auto body man I had some feel for heavy work by doing frame work with hydraulics on Cadillacs, and I took the mechanical approach to securing the building then.  I drilled holes through the balloon wall 2 X 4s and the floor joists and bolted it all together before I took the pressure off.  Put a few more collar ties up too then!
That was 23 years ago.  A while later I dormed out most of one side of the roof and built an apartment up there.  My new bride and I lived upstairs and my retired folks lived in the lower unit. I don't live there anymore but I seen it recently and it's still nice and straight down the side ( I look!).

Regarding dismantling your building....much of the lumber will get busted up and not be very useable.  Same with the sheeting. 
I would fix your place where it is..... you got some fantastic advice here.   With the economy so bad...maybe a guy and a tractor...or a guy and a tow truck, or what ever might be a good move............... or best yet, but yeh...not cheap, I'd talk to a house mover or two.  Jacking that up and resting those posts on much stronger concrete bases seems like the right way to go to me. 
I may try the easy way first.  Big posts on the outside of the crooked wall....across numerous posts. With chains going under the house to a tow truck / tractor or two on the other side....and give here a gradual pull.  The one guy mentioned problems of re-settled gravel in the void let by the moving post may be a problem..... but then again, that earth has so much give in it that it just might compress the earth as it's pulled back.   
This short cut with the beam (or post to post rapped chains) pulled by a tractor/truck would be so easy to try, I'd do it cause it would be fascinating / fun. 
If that wouldn't work...then I'd go with the jack up and re-set post technique.

Maybe your mind is made up..... and so be it, you're the one who has to live with the decision.  I sure admire where you will live, and the amazing amount of work you have done to put that nice place up.  If you don't mind doing it again....heck, have at it.  But you'll be re=purchasing a lot of material.  Putting that money to work hiring a little help might be a lot easier and quicker. 
Sorry if I'm too pushy with my two cents here....  Just wanted you to know, you CAN do it. 

Thank you for all your sharing here....including the big problem.... I learn SO much from Great Glen and the others in meaningful posts like this, thanks for giving them something to work on!  We all sincerely wish you the best in this.  What you have done already as an individual transcends what 98% of the population would tackle...and you have learned so much, and shared so much....thanks.

[phalynx]

I think its fixable.  I think it would much less work to fix than to rebuild.  I don't think it's dropped, only leaning.  I would put it back to vertical and put lots of bracing and I think you'll be fine.

[wed68]

ProHome,  I have spent about 2 hours today reading your entire thread,  I too am building a cabin and have been surfing this forum for ideas of what to do and more importantly not to do.  I am no expert but a very experienced DIYer!  Your issues here compelled me to my first post on this forum.

First and foremost congratulations on your first (that I can tell) building project, things only get bigger as you go along.  The bumps in the road have been a learning curve that all of us go thru,  just dont make to many of the same mistakes.   I have built a several houses big and small from the ground up and I must say at least one or two of them were straight and level. 

So I say all that to say this,  pick your head up,  take a deep breath and keep going.  Your mistake in the foundation was a big one yes, but not unfixable.   I have no new advice for a cure all of the above is great advice,  however if it were me, the jacking the house up, supporting it, and re setting the post would be my choice. 

Do not give up on you and your wifes dream! 

OK OK  I will quit with the inspirational speech.

Bill

[glenn kangiser]

I must say that I agree with with the last postings.  It is fixable by you right where it is sitting.  It will not likely be reusable if you dismantle it.  I do not think the ground is that bad.  My dad's house was built at the confluence of two creeks and has been sinking for 70 years but is still there and was re-leveled and a decent foundation put under it by my brother last year. 

I think there are some pretty good ideas posted above to fix it.  All is not lost.  I fix bigger problems than that every month for my customers and you can do it too.

If you don't want to then that is your choice. 

I think re-grading and drains above and around the site, will take care of the water problem.  At the worst, bracing and then repairing one footing at a time will take care of the rest of the problem.  Water getting into the footings has turned them into buckets of mud, but that is not that big a problem to fix.

[prohomesteader]

@all - I understand the house can be fixed, If I didn't think anything was possible I would have never attempted to build my own house in the first place.

The decision came down to the house can be fixed  but at what cost?  And where will we be the happiest?

1.  On higher ground with a more stable house.

2.  Deeper and Deeper financially invested in a location we just aren't happy with anymore.

So we are moving and I'm sure we will be much happier.

I do appreciate all of the help, advice, and support you've given but I'm not here to defend personal decisions and it's not a good use of my time.

We begin work on the new house this week.  If a mod could close this thread that would be cool since development on the 1.5 story in Kentucky is now done.

Exciting times are ahead.  I will be updating the status of the new home, eventually, at this address: prohomesteader.com

Good luck in your building adventures,
Mark

[MountainDon]

Hi Mark, I can understand your decision and as to closing this topic, sure I can do that

[John Raabe]

Before we go I want to thank diyfrank for the link to the USDA soils database. That informaiton can help folks find out about what type of soil they are building in.

I've done a tutorial on using it here: http://www.planhelp.com/members/104.cfm

I'll repost this in the Resources forum so it is not lost.