Author Topic: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)  (Read 711664 times)

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Offline Yonderosa

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #100 on: October 22, 2009, 04:41:39 PM »
Have tools  - including compressor, generator and nail guns, oh an of course, a Hart hammer  ;) :) -  will work for gas money and beer.   ;) d*
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Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #101 on: October 26, 2009, 08:10:55 AM »
Have tools  - including compressor, generator and nail guns, oh an of course, a Hart hammer  ;) :) -  will work for gas money and beer.   ;) d*

Wow!  Thanks for the offer Yonderosa!   Very kind and I would probably take you up on the offer if you were local but wouldn't want you to have to drive the several hours from home to the area just to bang nails with me!

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #102 on: October 28, 2009, 08:26:26 AM »
Starting to get antsi now!  It's Wednesday and Friday is just around the corner!  I'm ordering the rest of the lumber soon so I can have it delivered on Monday.  I'll get there Friday night and try to frame up the remaining walls on Saturday and Sunday (shoudl be no problem) then that leaves Monday and Tuesday (I'm off all week actually) to frame the roof and sheet it!

I'm hoping I can get the roof sheeted and wrapped in felt before I leave.

one question about temporary roofing:  If I use felt (30lbs) and nail down 1x2 strips to hold it on in case of wind etc will I need to replace it in the spring"?  Will it leak much?  At all?

I'm really out of time but if there are any other ideas about how to protect my project through the worst of the winter let me know!

One idea i have is to install the wood stove and burn it each month when I get up there to try to help keep it dry.  This area is pretty dry but I'm worried about the snow and it's been raining a lot lately.

Erik

Offline Yonderosa

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #103 on: October 28, 2009, 08:51:30 AM »
how much exposure to wind do you have?

I'd be half tempted to paper, and then tarp and then batten the heck out of it.   

Last year the snow was very dry and fluffy.  My neighbors say that is not typical.
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Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #104 on: October 28, 2009, 12:02:42 PM »
how much exposure to wind do you have?

I'd be half tempted to paper, and then tarp and then batten the heck out of it.   

Last year the snow was very dry and fluffy.  My neighbors say that is not typical.

I'd think very low exposure to wind -- we're on the north slope 100 feet from the top with a 30 foot drop to the bottom below us and BIG trees all around the lower section.

WE feel very little wind in the cabin site though it could pick up I suppose.

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #105 on: October 28, 2009, 12:06:14 PM »
how much exposure to wind do you have?

I'd be half tempted to paper, and then tarp and then batten the heck out of it.   

Last year the snow was very dry and fluffy.  My neighbors say that is not typical.

I was planning a ridge cap over felt and battens to hold it on.  The tarp idea has merit - maybe tied down over the battens even?  Certainly could nail battens along the ridge all the way around to keep the tarp on.

Or if time permits I could get the roofing done (preferred).

One thing I've noticed is the shed, which is at least 3 or 4 years old, has done very well despite only tyvex stapled to the sides and some exposed OSB.

It is rolled on the roof with a ridge vent but otherwise quite exposed yet still strong, clean and dry.  Perhaps the 14-15 inches of rain a year have something to do with that.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #106 on: October 28, 2009, 12:59:28 PM »
FWIW, half our cabin walls were let over winter with just the felt secured with button cap nails. We had no problem there.

The roof sat for a month or so with #30 felt secured with the same button cap nails. Over the ridge I placed a 20 foot wide sheet of clear 6 mil plastic, centered on the 10 ft fold mark. I pulled it tight and screwed as assortment of salvaged 1x2 and 1x4 pieces around all the edges. That was in place for a short time, but I did it thinking I might get stuck by the weather and have to leave it over the winter. It was quite windy and held out well.

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #107 on: October 28, 2009, 01:07:03 PM »
FWIW, half our cabin walls were let over winter with just the felt secured with button cap nails. We had no problem there.

The roof sat for a month or so with #30 felt secured with the same button cap nails. Over the ridge I placed a 20 foot wide sheet of clear 6 mil plastic, centered on the 10 ft fold mark. I pulled it tight and screwed as assortment of salvaged 1x2 and 1x4 pieces around all the edges. That was in place for a short time, but I did it thinking I might get stuck by the weather and have to leave it over the winter. It was quite windy and held out well.



Awesome!  This is the sort of stuff I need to hear to pick my spirits up!  Thanks Don!

News of rain and snow has me sweating bullets!  I am itching to get the walls finished (shoudl be done Saturday no problem as long is it isn't too foul of weather) and then the roof framed and sheeted -- If I can do that Monday then by Tuesday I can have it felted and will feel 100% better about the foul weather.

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #108 on: October 28, 2009, 03:55:06 PM »
Question:

I plan on insulating the roof on my little place and beleive I will need proper venting for both winter (cold) and summer (hot).  My thought was to install 2x vent blocks instead of just rafter blocks on top of the wall and then a ridge vent/cap at the top.

Does this sound right?  Should the vent blocks be every rafter opening?

Is 2x4x24" vent blocks correct for 2x6 rafters on a 12:12 pitch?

Thanks!

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #109 on: October 28, 2009, 06:57:09 PM »
I'm not an expert, okay. But since nobody else has chimed in, here goes...

According to code there is a minimum amount of vent area. It is calculated as no less than 1/150th of the area to be ventilated. There are if's and and's that allow that to be reduced to 1/300. (position o vents and vapor barrier enter into this.)

So you have a 14x24 = 336 sq ft. I we use 1/150 you need 336/150 = 2.24 sq t o vent. If we use 1/300 you need 1.12 sq ft. The area is the free area of the vent: louvers and screen reduce the area of the vent.

I've also seen recommendations that one sq inch of ventilation be provided for each square foot.

The total area is then divided between air in and air out, with air in being the sofits and air out being the ridge vent.  It would appear that with adequate vapor barrier and the soffit/ridge venting you could use 1 sq ft of soffit and 1 sq ft of ridge area. Note that soffit vents can also be exit vents if the wind is blowing.

I don't see anything that says the area must be equally distributed between the rater bays, unless I missed it. So my opinion is you need not place a vent in each bay. Each vent must have a clear path for the air though, and that is where those foam baffle things come in handy with a roof/attic like mine... insulation laying on the ceiling. The baffles keep a free path for the air to move from the soffits up into the attic space. The baffles are also called air chutes.

But your roof is different.  :D I imagine you mean to place insulation in between the rafters and place ceiling material under that to achieve a loft and/or cathedral ceiling. In that case You would need to provide ventilation from bottom to top of each rater bay. However, I think you can get away with every other bay IF there is ventilation between each bay, as in holes drilled through the rafters. ???

Another note: better ridge vents have baffles like below...



Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #110 on: October 28, 2009, 07:02:19 PM »
There are also methods to build a cathedral roof using unvented design.



Building Science has information on this.

"Unvented roof assemblies, such as conditioned attics and unvented cathedral ceilings, are becoming common in North American construction.  It is estimated that over 100,000 have been constructed since 1995.  These assemblies are created by eliminating ventilation openings and moving the thermal, moisture and air control boundaries to the plane of the roof deck."

Full article available at...

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-149-unvented-roof-assemblies-for-all-climates?full_view=1

You can D/L it in PD at...

http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-149-unvented-roof-assemblies-for-all-climates/?searchterm=roof%20ventilation

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #111 on: October 28, 2009, 10:21:45 PM »
Thanks Don!

Wouldn't venting each rafter bay be better?  Specially in the summer when it gets VERY hot?  Like say 100 degrees out? 

My worry is that an unvented roof, while water proof of course, would not vent the hot air radiating in from the roofing thus the heat would radiate into the loft area of the cabin -- making it hotter and hotter?

I plan on reading the article too (thanks) but am thinking a vent block in each bay followed by a good ridge vent and the roof would 'breath' thus allowing hot air to be vented out of the roof in the summer.

In the winter I'm less worried becuase wood stoves tend to work VERY well in small cabins :)

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #112 on: October 28, 2009, 10:29:25 PM »
Interesting article!

However, I can't see blowing in the foam in my location ;) so I'm back to standard venting I think.

My hope is that with fiberglass insulation (R19) in the 2x6 framing, 30lbs felt on the roof sheeting and a tin roof with some sort of interior covering (maybe some pine T&G on vapor barrier) and it will at least allow venting of hot air in the summer and provide insulation to keep the heat in during the winter -- that's the thought anyway.

My walls and floor will all be R19 -- nothing fancy sure, but with side skirts around the cabin and the wood stove I'm thinking we're good :)

Besides, the propane RV heater keeps the tent trailer warm when it's 5 degrees out! hehe  so the Cabin HAS to be warmer with the VC Aspen and 6" walls, floor and roof!

I can't wait!

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #113 on: October 28, 2009, 10:31:38 PM »
I wrote this before your last post and didn't feel like editing it.   ;)


Yes, in a cathedral ceiling roof like you would be building I think ventilating each bay would be best.

As for the building science article, it is a good one. However, to do the job the best way requires the use of closed cell spray foam. And that's best done by a professional installer. I threw it in as something interesting.

IF I was building a new full time residence I'd give serious consideration to many o the design ideas that building science has.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #114 on: October 28, 2009, 10:42:00 PM »

My hope is that with fiberglass insulation (R19) in the 2x6 framing, ...


One second on that. 2x6 rafters aren't deep enough for a ventilation space (1" recommended I think) and the R19, without furring out the 2x6 or some other plan.  ???

BTW, I really don't understand why all the stores carry R19 and sell it to folks like ourselves who have built with 2x6 studs. A 2x6 = 5 1/2 inches, right? The R19 that I see is all rated to be 6 1/4 inches thick.  When compressed into a 5 1/2 inch space it becomes R18.

From Owens-Corning



The R21 which would be ideal is available locally here, but only from insulation installers who will only sell it with installation (but wanted a fortune to go up to the mountains) , or in minimum quantities that are too large for a simple cabin like mine.  d*

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #115 on: October 29, 2009, 03:42:50 AM »
Interesting!  So R21 is what I need?  Seems too small also since it's 5 1/2 inches also.

Interesting.

Makes you wonder if there is greater benefit in using a R15 or something?

Offline Yonderosa

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #116 on: October 29, 2009, 05:11:42 AM »
I'm not sure what your plan calls for but here is what I did.  I used 2x8 rafters, vented every rafter bay (bird blocks) and used gable end vents.  The 2x8's allowed me to use R-21 on the vaulted sections gave me the 1" gap between the insulation and roof deck.  The collar ties/ceiling joists form a small attic and I was able to use R38 there.  My walls are 2x4 and I used R 13 because it all that was locally available at the time.  The floor uses R-21.  



On our last trip the nightly lows ranged from 15*F to 18*F.  Running our "Big Buddy" heater for about an hour would heat the inside to a very comfortable 65*F at which point I would shut it down.  We would lose 2-3 degrees per hour so relighting  the heater every 4 or five hours was required.

During the warm weather the inside temperature would be around 15 degrees cooler than the outside temperature if we kept the windows and door closed. 95*F was the highest we saw this year.  The nights would drop into the low 40's and no heat was required.  

Conversely our TRAILER required heating year round at night and the warm days were not pleasant to be inside it.

Even though we didn't super insulate I'm pleased with the performance.  
« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 07:19:58 AM by Yonderosa »
http://theyonderosa.blogspot.com/

"The secret to life is to be alive.  To live ultimately by one's own hand and one's own independent devices." -Ted Nugent

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #117 on: October 30, 2009, 04:07:17 PM »
Thanks guys!

No cabin work for me this weekend :(  In fact, it may be another week before I get there (not good) as work has suddenly interfered (and I do need to work).

I told my boss that I'm just a manager and if I have to work as a Director well then he knows what to do.

We'll see if anything comes of it but he did say "I can't disagree with anything you're saying".  Good then give me the promotion and the pay raise and I'll pay someone to finish my cabin ;)

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #118 on: November 02, 2009, 10:49:03 AM »


Survived the snow and rain barely - had 25 gallons of water in the tarp I guess...got it out and strung it a little tighter...not good!  I need to get back to work on it but work has held me off.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2010, 09:50:08 AM by OlJarhead »

Offline considerations

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #119 on: November 02, 2009, 11:20:22 AM »
I did the same dance with the water, I can relate, but it all turned out ok, so will yours.   c*

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #120 on: November 02, 2009, 02:44:52 PM »
I did the same dance with the water, I can relate, but it all turned out ok, so will yours.   c*
[cool]

Thanks!  I am really stressing but a lot of that is work!  I'm a key player in a startup with contracts with all the big boys in Cellular (ATT, Verizon, TMO, Sprint etc) and we broke the TMO network (all sites down) in Southern New Jersey last week :(  d*

Was very bad and stressful but we're getting through it -- if we succeed here then there is no stopping us :)

And I can get back to cabin building instead of looking at sites and circuits ;)

Cheers
Erik

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #121 on: November 06, 2009, 04:05:48 PM »
This weekend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Materials ordered for Monday delivery.  I plan to finish the wall framing Saturday and Sunday.

Wish me luck!!!

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #122 on: November 06, 2009, 05:21:52 PM »
All the best! May the weather cooperate!
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn’t mean it is good design.

If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time and money to fix it?

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #123 on: November 06, 2009, 06:53:35 PM »
All the best! May the weather cooperate!

Amen!  I picked up a compressor and nailer from a friend and need a box of 61d nails and a quick disco and I'm set to frame the walls a little faster ;)

I hope to at least get the walls done and the loft started but am hopeful the nailer will improve speed and we can start the roof before having to leave (work calls again) Tuesday evening.

Then the next weekend will see us back finishing the roof.  I'll pick up a kerosene heater to help warm it up and dry it out until the stove can be installed :)

Offline OlJarhead

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Re: Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)
« Reply #124 on: November 06, 2009, 09:15:26 PM »
 d*
Oops

OK just realized something I need help with.  I framed my first portion of the north wall (10 feet) and then stopped.  My next section is 14 feet and I intended to put the kitchen window in this piece.  However I need to put it RIGHT THERE.  In other words I had planned the kitchen window right in the joint without realizing it.

I can of course, move it into the 14 foot section but would like to frame it RIGHT at the end stud that will nail to the 10 foot wall (joining the two together).

So my question is:  is this an issue?  The top plate will cross both of course and I'll have headers in place (load bearing wall) plus cripples and will overlap the joint by at least 2 feet with sheathing.

Will this be ok?
Thanks
Erik