Step by Step Solar- DIY Style

[Miedrn]

Glen  

I know you're busy but could you please start the step by step thread with perhaps what not to do? With your level of knowledge, maybe it could start with just general "don't waste your time" kind of ideas?

Everyone could add to it later but I'm starting to research this subject now and it would be very helpful....hint, hint!

There is so much information here, it's become a text book for me and others, I'm sure. Heck, I've even logged on from the hospital a few times!

I'm interested in going totally off grid. Running my fridge, water pump, washer if possible and heat in cold Michigan winters.

And what about my computer? It's on and connected 24/7 right now but I'm rethinking that among other things.

Anyway, thanks in advance. For now, I'd even be grateful for your thoughts.

Also anyone else who would like to chime in!

[glenn kangiser]

OK miedrn.

You just started it.

I made this DIY style because from the example I previously quoted, if you want to get a contractor you probably have way too much money to be interested in this forum anyway.  At the very least you will know enough to know what you need and if you are getting a fair deal.  Note that there are a million ways to do this - we will try to gain a knowledge that will allow us to know the principles behind it - not just certain brands.  Note that in a grid tied system there are other safety concerns and a solar electrical contractor will probably be required to insure the safety of the people working on the lines in case of a power outage.  The power company will definitely have specific requirements.  In this case you bank your electricity with them and pay for the difference.  You as an individual will not make money off of them if you go too large.  They only pay at avoided cost - pennies on the dollar of your investment.  For big business it is different.

To start with - there are rebates in some areas - maybe up to half, but the state usually ties installation into a certified contractor (the business-politics tie - fascism?) so you will probably pay a large amount and maybe get some back.  Generally they require that you are tied into the grid also - there go any savings.  The power company is in very tight with the building department and generally won't talk to you until you have a permit - going from my experience here.  Many places have an agreement with the power company to turn (report) in building projects that may not be permitted, per Mike Oehler.

I assisted the above contractor when he couldn't get panels in time for the ladies water pump.  I thought he would do a pro installation with proper fittings etc.  He taped the conduit into the panels with black tape.  Surprised me.  I could have done that.  You need enough knowledge to know if you are getting ripped off if you don't DIY.

If you are building in a permit area it is up to you to obtain permits if necessary.

I started small and wasted some money experimenting - so I think I can save you a bit here.

Unless you are not planning on anything significant, don't waste your time on a 12 volt system.  If it grows large the primary cables are gigantic and expensive.  Modified sine wave inverters are cheap but I wouldn't waste my time with them either - too many things work marginally on them or not at all or burn out.  Sine wave inverters only is my experience and advice.  There- I just saved you $2000 give or take.

I am on 24 volts which is the lowest I would consider.  48 is probably better.  I would like you to learn some electrical theory to know why.  If you have to call a contractor evey time you have a power production problem, you probably won't find making you own electricity doable. A house call to clean battery terminals could be quite expensive.  Note that you also want this knowledge because there is enough power in these batteries to start fires - fry a tool or wire in your hand - give you a bad burn or worse.  It is even posssible to weld with a set of batteries and jumper cables in a pinch.

Sparks around batteries can be dangerous.  When charging batteries produce hydrogen gas which under the right conditions can explode spraying battery parts and acid all over the place.

No special recommendation here but here is a page on basic electricity - Ohms law - study it a bit and we will talk about how this is relevant to owning and maintaining your own system.  http://www.the12volt.com/ohm/ohmslaw.asp

This information is useful for understanding your normal house electrical system too.

As an example of why this is important - it is part of how if you understand it others will not be able to take advantage of you and rip you off -- knowledge is power and in the case of the DIY'er ---money.

[Miedrn]

Thanks Glen, appreciate it even more considering how busy you are.

Appreciate everyone's patience with my endless questions.

One of my concerns with building is being taken advantage of, whether buying supplies or the things I'll have to have inspected and probably fixed!

Just a brief comment -

I didn't know that Bush's ranch was completely off grid. Isn't that interesting? Who would have thought?

Modified to add: I just checked out that link Glen! Wholly $$$$! What am I getting myself into? More than one equation for watts?

~Thinking Geez, can I do this?~

I'll just take a deep breath I guess and go for it.

[glenn kangiser]

Part of my reason for wanting you to learn that is so you will look at your hair dryer and go wow -- 13 amps times 120 volts is 1560 watts.  Your inverter needs to handle that plus your lights plus your microwave and on and on - everything you will have on at one time will determine the size of your inverter - then you need room to spare.  How long you want to run things like that will determine how many solar panels you will need - wind generator can assist if wind is available - back up generator for when nothing is available.  The amount of batteries you have will determine what you can do at night --- (Not tonight dear --- My batteries are low.) :-/

You will see that electric heat off grid is pretty much of a no no.  Even an electric furnace blower on a propane or NG furnace is not good.  Try a wood stove or some other type that doesn't rely on electricity to operate.  You'll be a lot warmer for the effort.  That is the reason the lady mentioned above had to move out.  Not enough power to run the furnace all night.  Gas appliances - water heater - range - fridge if you like.  

Other reasons for knowing basic electricity.  System not working like it should or did -- pay for an expensive house call or DIY?  Battery water needs to be kept up at least monthly is good (please note that some of this is do as I say -not as I do). :-/  Your system will love you for it though.  

Here is my battery bank -  it could be neater and better - sheetrock walls would be nice - fireproof being the idea.  Accessibility could be better - it's not like I planned this this way.  These are 375 amp hour batteries at 6 volts each wired in series for 24 volts each set of 4 then parallelled for 24 volts total at more storage capacity and higher available amperage.  Main reason is the storage capacity as one set of these has a lot of power.



When the system is not functioning properly we need to diagnose it's problem.  A multimeter will tell us a lot about it.  Here I am checking for voltage between the terminal and the post-- I should not get a reading as they should be the same point - but there is a voltage present.  Why.  Because the connection is dirty - corrosion is starting - batteries give off a bit of acid and gas when they are charged or discharged - more as they get older-- like me-- - this makes resistance and slows both charging and use of stored current from the battery.  The terminals must be cleaned to restore function.

The regulator keeps the batteries from being overcharged and boiling out their electrolyte.  It disconnects the solar panels when the batteries are full or diverts it to a load of sorts to burn it off.  A heater can be used here to waste the excess energy or I use my excess to pump water with - then store the water.   Simply disconnecting the solar panels will work for them, but my wind generator cannot be disconnected or it will overspeed.  That's why I pump water with it.  There is a dump load circuit on the wind generator control box - when it comes on -- the red light --

power is sent to 2 Ford Car horn relays in series so they will take 24 volts without burning out-- I wired the switches in them to turn on my pump -- the 24 volts controls a 110v relay to turn on the 220 volts for the pump -- I did that because the pump is also on a cheap timer that comes on for 15 mionutes every 2 hours four times during peak sunlight hours.  A good understanding of basic electricity will allow you to do cool things like this too.

These are my two 4000 watt 24 volt sine wave inverters.  They are synced together with a special cable to make 220v for the pump.  My pump is 10 amps at 220v.  How many watts is that?  Although there is a little waste in efficiency - ignoring that, ---how many amps am I pulling from the batteries to make that amount of watts?



If I have 2000 watts of solar panels, how long do they have to work to store enough watts to run the pump for 1 hour (4 times per day at 15 minutes each)  the garden will die if it doesn't get watered -- better have enough.

[Chateau Prideaux]

Whenever I see the huge battery bank, my environ-mental gene gives me a kick. The battery life is short (even is treated with the care you mention) and I hate thinking of these batteries living in a landfill somewhere.

As a result, I've had a few thought experiments that I've gone through, and one in particular I'd like to share.

The whole goal of the batteries is to store energy. There are alternatives that are available, some more hopefully nearly commercial viability (e.g. home hydrogen fuel cell / storage). Until that's ready I've got a low tech approach that I might try out.

If you have a significant slope, what about having two cisterns, one at the top, the other at the bottom. Excess solar power is used to pump water from the low end to the high end. At night time, the water would flow down hill to provide the necessary energy.

There are glaring gaps such as wasted flow if you want "instant-on energy". perhaps this approach would only reduce the number of batteries as they would provide buffer and instant-on availability while the stored potential energy in the upper cistern would be released when the battery capacity drops.

Just some thoughts...

[glenn kangiser]

Usually batteries go to the recycler now so not as bad.  There is a possibility of something like you mention - I also have had thoughts of things like this, however haven't found information as to quantities - efficiencies or methods.  Maybe this is a project we can work on in our group.

There are now pumps that pump directly from the panels with no battery bank needed unless you pump at night.  I might do well to get one of them but mine is working at this time so there goes that idea.

Battery life is about 4 to 6 years on the good side at about $150 or so each.

[glenn kangiser]

I had some links to more of this information but hadn't found it earlier.

Here's a good one.

http://www.backwoodssolar.com/interests/RemoteHome.htm

[Miedrn]

This isn't going to be easy, is it?

Out of curiosity, what forms of alternative energy do you use? You mention wind power also - what is involved with it? There is a company beginning wind power here with turbines in the thumb area. Studies I've read about wind power  in Michigan says not to discount it and it's true - we have our share of wind especially closer to the lakes you are.

Is a system that is locked into the grid worth it or should I go all or nothing? I also wanted something in case of power outages and I'm sure people know the story bout that, heaven knows I've mentioned it enough.

[Chateau Prideaux]

Even going to a recycler, it seems like a lot of embedded costs for storage. Factoring in the lifespan of the house 100+ years hopefully and no improvements to technology (usually a bad assumption, but until cell phones/laptops, not much seems to have changed in the battery world)... that's a lot of batteries.

Hopefully, there will be a viable fuel cell / storage mechanism someday (wikipedia has some great info on the various types... I spent days soaking in that knowledge pool http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell).

[Chateau Prideaux]

Is a system that is locked into the grid worth it or should I go all or nothing? I also wanted something in case of power outages and I'm sure people know the story bout that, heaven knows I've mentioned it enough.

I like the grid tie in with a reversable meter, if offered by the power company. This avoids the battery issue, as your solar surplus during the day can be used at night. To cover nighttime outages, a diesel generator is a pretty good option, or batteries.

[glenn kangiser]

I use a Bergey XL1 -- 1000 watt wind generator and about 2000 watts of solar panels.  The wind generator probably adds about 1/4 of the power here - not a great location but better than some -- and sometimes it adds a lot or even all of it depending on conditions.

I always look at other brands but most of them are not as good as the Bergey.  

http://www.bergey.com/
Bergey Windpower Co., the world's leading supplier of small wind turbines

Or you can build your own.
http://www.scoraigwind.com/
Hugh Piggott - Scoraig Wind Electric

Chateau Prideaux, you are right - batteries are not cheap and getting them - moving them - replacing them etc. all takes time and money.

[Miedrn]

I'm seriously impressed Glen.

You mentioned safety and I would think it would be a big issue including learning enough in the beginning to be safe. Now I understand why you included that link.

Can you simply throw a switch to turn the system off for maintenance?

You have to be careful when filling the batteries, right? I wouldn't want to touch a live wire, are they live there?

How long does it take for maintenance?  Are we talking daily, monthly? How often do you tweak, test or maintain it?

Do they make generators that aren't so noisy?

[glenn kangiser]

A grid tie system with net metering is still down when the grid is down so as you mentioned - it is batteries or generator.  

If your purpose in doing it is to save money, that probably won't happen especially if you don't do it yourself.  If you want to have power when others don't or not be under the thumb of the power company then maybe it is for you.  

Wind power in many areas is marginal and in dense housing areas you will find plenty of people who may think they won't like it therefore they will try to stop you.  The main thing stopping it in a lot of areas is that people don't want to see a wind generator in their view or skyline.  The sound is generally pleasing and in high winds, usually the storm makes more noise.

[glenn kangiser]

I'm not real fearful of electricity - my uncle taught me a lot when I was 9 or so and in high school I had 2 years of half day electronics classes.  I regularly stand in water and weld in the winter time.  No problem if you don't do the wrong thing.

I do most of my maintenance hot and have double wired the system so I can disconnect parts of  a set of batteries without killing the system -- 3 sets parallelled so 2 could be disconnected and still have power of the remaining set.  Usually I only disconnect one lug at a time.  DANGER, WILL ROBINSON- where'd that come from??  --- yup -- a wrench dropped in the wrong place could make gigantic fireworks -- steel will melt if left dropped across the lugs of these babies.  The hydrogen gas when charging could blow pieces of battery case and sulfuric acid into your face as well if that wrench makes a spark at the wrong time.  I have found that as long as you know this you try hard not to screw up.  Disconnect things for safety you say --- good idea but if you think you are safe your are still in trouble.  The terminals on top will still be there and just the act of disconnecting things still leaves you vulnerable.  Best thing is to really know and understand what you are doing and exercise caution at all times.  Just as you know not to put your hand on a hot plate or in a fire- it's dangerous but can be controlled if you are careful and do the right things.  

[Chateau Prideaux]

Glenn, do you have thoughts on the solar cells that lay flat on the roof? I've seen some that fit into the valleys of standing seam metal roofs. You know they are there, but they don't look as bulky.

I imagine that I'll need the standard panels with the thicker facing to protect against the hail we get here.

Is your system mobile, e.g. does is track the sun and seasonal pitch variations?

[glenn kangiser]

Battery filling is a matter of removing the caps and filling with [highlight]distilled[/highlight] water to the fill ring.  Other types of water add impurities that may be detrimental to battery life.   The cables are pretty well fixed and as long as you aren't wild or drunk when doing it there is not a lot of danger.

I have two switches to shut the entire system down.  They are in the tool box of my truck.  Guess I should put them in one of these days --- there goes that do as I say thing again.  I'm sure they are required by code and a good idea too - that's why I bought them - since my system is organic, that part of it just hasn't grown yet.  I will cut one main at a time and install them - there is not much danger from the 24 volt system except if things get shorted together - bringing up another point -- guess I need to get some of those big 24 volt fuses in there too.

[glenn kangiser]

Quiet generators just cost more money -- actually there are some pretty nice looking ones that are quiet for house use in the $3500 range.  Smaller quiet ones could be used also such as a Honda or other quiet generator.  The inverters I have will adjust themselves to whatever generator is available.  I would recommend a 3000 watt one as a minimum.  I have a loud 3000 watt diesel that I horse traded for - It could be made quieter if it bothered me.

System maintenance is not too bad.  I eyeball it daily - look at it closer walking by weekly -- wash the batteries off with baking soda and water then rinse with a hose every few months as necessary - check terminals when corrosion is showing - usually same time when they are in need of washing off. - Probably 6 months or so - also check the water at this time although I pull random checks every once in a while.  Probably requires 4 hours every 6 months.

(Had a noise outside - raccoons or bear -- had bear footprints in the dirt outside last night and have all my doors open- If I don't finish this post I'm probably dinner)

[Amanda_931]

Bear?  Wow!

People occasionally used to swear they'd seen tracks where I grew up near (the North Carolina) Ft Bragg.  My dad was never convinced.  I've never seen one in the wild.

People who are minimalist like the idea of 12 v systems.  You can get all the comforts of home in 12 v--lights TV, refrigerator, computer, stereo.  But you have to think all the time.

And the time I sized wires for an all-12v system involving Dankoff slow- pump down at the bigger spring I ended up thinking that it would take $1000 worth of thumb-sized copper wires.

About Batteries--a) some do get rebuilt--especially if you are using things like those need-a-crane-or-forklift-to-move kind that power electric forklifts.  Not quite the same as recycled.

But rumor hath it that nearly everybody gets pretty short life out of their first set of batteries.  One reason it may be a good idea to start small.

[glenn kangiser]

Yeah - a bear - I usually leave them alone except when they mess with my stuff.  I have what the Native Americans here call a track trap if I remember what Ben told me.  Lots of dust around the construction area and driveway-- its cool to check as I walk by and see what else has passed through.  Millepede - rattle snakes - deer --bear --raccoon etc.

I saw the big toe prints and foot prints and thought Kathy had been walking bare foot (which she doesn't normally do) then realized it wasn't bare foot -- it was BEAR FOOT.

The noise was 3 raccoons on the roof and a deer by the garden --- I guess I'm still alive.  The coons just sit and watch until I move toward them - hoping I will go away.  My little 4 LED flashlight really brings out their eyes in the dark.

I just bought 10 feet of welding cable 2/0 for my crane motors -- $33.00 and he gave me a deal --- with no Vaseline. Sorry - I thought maybe I shouldn't write that so crossed it out. :-/

[desdawg]

I am a simple minded kind of guy. I would suggest starting simple. Get a small 12v solar panel, a charge controller and a deep cycle 12v battery to run a 12 volt light or two. Once you have that mastered that you can expand using the principles applied to the simple system. Most of what you will need is available at a local auto parts store like Checker or Auto Zone and isn't real expensive. JMO. Read and follow the instructions that come with the charge controller and panel. That was how I started out and ran a few 12v fixtures in a camp trailer. Later I was able to build the 24v system for the larger home using the knowledge I had gained and some ongoing reading and education.

[glenn kangiser]

For a simple start as desdawg mentioned, there are small 12 volt modified sine wave inverters at Walmart and lots of other places.  These work pretty good for a lot of things.  I always carry one for my computer or various small chargers.  The small ones plug into a cigarette lighter - most above 150 watts need to hook to the battery.  Again - multiply volts times amps to figure out how many watts you need.

[Miedrn]

I found a worksheet to estimate our solar needs. It might be helpful for initial research - to see if solar would be a viable alternative for us.

Later it would be better to be able to do the calculations in your head if you plan on going solar (right?) but this is a good initial organizing tool.

http://www.solarexpert.com/Pvload.html

Here is another website explaining usage:

http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-basics.html

[Amanda_931]

A couple of months ago I got an inexpensive "solar system" every bit of 45 watts to try to use to keep the trailer battery charged.

Supposed to be complete.

And it sort of is--hook ups for some cute and teensy little fluorescent lights, places to plug in whatever you're running on 3v, etc.

But.....

It keeps a noise going when your panels aren't in the sun.  Which sounds (pun intended) like it will take out of the battery that got put in.  Instructions say to disconnect from the panels when the sun isn't shining.

Now, on a good day I've probably got 4 hours worth of sun.  In three separated blocks.  

Sorry, I'm not going to stand there and watch them, or even stand around every day to listen for the low-voltage from panels tone.

What do I need?  A real charge controller?

Open to suggestions.  The inexpensive ones seem to be around $100.  Might be better to get a full-sized one for if-and-when I get house-sized PV--up the hill where there's a whole lot less shade.

This is one of the "around $100" kinds.  but you could use it for a light controller if you didn't need it as a charge controller.

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/405/docserve.asp

[glenn kangiser]

Thats a bit small to worry about a charge controller, I think, Amanda.  How about just going to Radio Shack and getting a diode to keep the power flowing one way only.  Should cost under $5.00

Here is info on how to do it -- you can double check to make sure you have it right by using a voltmeter to see that you have voltage through the diode.  The current will only flow one way so you will only get a reading in one direction.  

http://www.alpharubicon.com/altenergy/abcsofsolar.htm

The teenage boy with the dark rimmed glasses at radio shack can help explain it to you better.

[glenn kangiser]

Miedrn, what you are doing is the proper way.  

What I do is do it in my head -- think I would like to power something else - buy more panels - throw them on the roof - hook up the wires the run in - sit down in my chair and get on Countryplans.  I never do it right because I know that I can do it right but that takes time and this works so here I am. :-/

Do as I say -- not as I do.  Just note that it does work good enough for me to give you guys a bad time every day.