Composting Toilets

dail · March 19, 2006, 12:59:20 AM

I've got a question for those of you who have knowlege of this subject. Composting Toilets.
We have a single quarter acre lot that the county of Franklin, Georgia won't let me put a septic tank on. So I'd like to see if I can talk them into a compost toilet by Environ Systems. (I think I got that name right.)
What has been yall's experience in Health Depts perception of, or acceptance of, composting toilets in general? ...county's perception or reception of in general?
Thanks....dail

PEG688 · March 19, 2006, 01:27:13 AM

Fun how things go , just Friday past the plumber boss man came by the job with pizza for his crew

And we all sat and chatted about Ranai's (sp) instant hot water , PEC's pipe , amoung other thing building like,, so my boss 60 plus , the plumber boss 60 plus and me 50 plus

all jabbering about change , new stuff ,, old stuff etc , thats like 100 years of building trades hyperbole

and of all thing composting toilets

In a custom house for a retired Boeing eng. the plumber had put in a composting toilet, burned the waste up ,,sealed to the house when in action , dropped the waste into a drum in the crawl space , to be turned twice or so a week and then dumped when required as composted waste. So here on Island county Wa. it can be done . Down John's end of the Isl. the "hippy's" have been using them for years , so said my boss and ,yes,, I had heard that as well.

The plumber said he begged to run a three inch line,, just in case,,, the owner or some future owner wanted to "Tap in ". Owner wouldn't do it , LOL .

We also chatted about pay back on the all types of hot water heat , ground sourse heat pumps , etc quite a lunch . We all most solved every possible problem / question , of course with more questions than answers ,[highlight] so ya it depends[/highlight] , LOL. I sort of like this place

Good luck , PEG

March 19, 2006, 10:01:39 AM

Love it, PEG! Learned so much from that kinda crowd in my mis-spent youth. Congrats on being a member of the "Wise Guys".

dail, probably best to contact the health department and see where they stand on the issue. The most "friendly" states, if I recall, are Maine, Massachusettes, New Mexico, and Washington. Arizona has a state standard; the unit must be nationally approved, and you still have to submit the technical specs, along with a permit fee about the same as for a septic system. I understand some permitting authorities may not have a "system" in place, but are willing to be educated. As is so often said in this forum, "Depends".
[smiley=happy.gif]
Is this going to be a full time residence, or a vacation type home? Maybe they would allow a holding tank; basically a single chamber septic tank with no leaching system that you have pumped out as required.
Good luck, indeed.

Ailsa C. Ek · March 19, 2006, 10:41:29 AM

OK, maybe I'm being a little slow here. The composting toilet takes care of the waste from there, but what about all the rest of the household wastewater - washing dishes, taking showers, doing laundry, etc. If you can't put in a septic system, where's that to go?

glenn kangiser · March 19, 2006, 10:46:05 AM

Good question, Ailsa. They allow greywater systems here only if you do some kind of lagoon or pond type thing for treatment. You used to just be able to send it down the hill and let the local plants take care of it. I know of a couple such systems with no odors and no dead plants or animals laying around.

March 19, 2006, 04:37:47 PM

When we were preparing to begin building the Duckpond house, the soil test revealed extremely slow drainage with our heavy clay soil. A septic system would have required over 300 metres of trenches dug zig zag through a large part of the garden.

We installed a grey water treatment plant called Ozzi Kleen, and this required only one not very large tank to be sunk into the ground. The hole was dug with a little mini digger and the tank installed by our plumber and his offsider. One pipe goes from the treatment plant to the garden beds where a series of drippers discharge the water onto the garden. The extra water is appreciated by the trees and shrubs as this is the only water they get apart from the rainfall.

I'm not terribly good on the technical side of things, but I know that if the system is approved by the Yarra Ranges Council, then it must conform to all sorts of standards.

Some similar systems require three tanks, and seem to run 24 hours a day. Our system is apparently the only one that switches on for about 20 minutes every few hours. This makes only a gentle burbling sound (if you happen to be standing very close to the tank).

I'm sure there would be similar systems available in the USA.

cheers
cecilia
www.duckpond-design.com.au/theduckpond

dail · March 19, 2006, 09:38:42 PM

I appreciate your replys so far. My objective with those two questions was, to try and get some idea of how well that kind of system was recieved in other parts of the USA.
Since I've been in Georgia, after liveing in Washington State, I've learned that they tend to be "Old Fassion, " or "Back wards" here. I've already decided that I'm going to have to "sell" them on the idea. I just wanted some other areas to show where it was done so I could say "See, they did it there." and "this way." etc.
Your replies have also given me some additional info. Thanks Cecilia for the info on the Ozzi-Kleen. I'm going to look into systems for treating the Gray Water too. I don't really picture the Gray Water as being difficult to deal with, as I do the Black Water. I'm thinking of some sort of natural recycling system for that.
This residence will be for part time living. A base station, since we live in our RV as full timers. I hope to maintain my woodshop there, as well as the apartment over.

Amanda_931 · March 20, 2006, 12:16:42 AM

Hmmph.

If you can't have a septic tank, can't hook on to the sewer, how come it was legal to sell you the lot? You were supposed to go dump your grey and black water somewhere else a couple of times a week??

I wish that we had some of those Australian systems.

That said.

Make sure that your toilet system is NSF certified. I'm not sure that they can deny you if it is. Although you might have to do some serious begging.

And you may have to have one even if I know of a handful of people who found them horrible, and switched (or switched back) to a sawdust toilet which works much better thank you. Sawdust toilets (search on "humanure") are not not not certified, very simple, all home-built and maintained.

A month or so ago Envirolet was having a sale. There's still at least one thing on sale. These guys: http://www.envirolet.com

And Art Ludwig is the man on greywater systems. His site is very informative. His books come faster from him than they do from Amazon, BTW.

http://www.oasisdesign.net/greywater/buildersguide/index.htm

Although the Earthship^tm all-in-one systems sound pretty wonderful. They do tend to end up with a small septic tank, though.

cecilia · March 20, 2006, 01:51:40 AM

Hello Dail

Just thought I should add an extra note in case I didn't make it clear in my previous message.

Our Ozzi Kleen system treats EVERYTHING that comes from the house - grey AND black water. We don't a separate system for black water. There is a link to their website from our site if you wanted to see a more technical description of how it all works.

cheers
cecilia
www.duckpond-design.com.au/theduckpond

bil2054 · March 20, 2006, 09:23:12 AM

Sounds like the Ozzil Kleen is an aerobic septic system. These differ from the "classic" septic system in that the effluent is aerated, causing a much faster, and also much less odorous, digestion of the waste products.
One benefit of an aerobic system is a much smaller leaching field requirement.
Downside is greater initial expense, and some operating procedures you don't normally have to consider with an anaerobic system. Of course, the same applies to most other alternatives as far as extra work goes.
The NSF does have specifications for these systems, but they are not widely accepted yet, so ya still have to try and educate, beg, plead, etc to get permit approval.
Here's a link to a good article about them:
http://www.toolbase.org/techinv/techDetails.aspx?technologyID=141
Good luck!

Daddymem · March 20, 2006, 12:21:05 PM

Standard septic systems are aerobic (in the leaching area) with anaerobic treatment occuring in the septic tank. Aerobic treatment is not as efficient as anaerobic treatment for dealing with nitrogen which is why aerobic packaged systems often have an option to recycle treated effluent back into the septic tank for further break down of the nitrogen by the no-oxygen bugs. Aerobic systems add much more are into the system than a conventional leaching area has and there is usually a recirculation of effluent over some media where the oxygen bugs grow, eat, multiply, and die. Composting toilets are allowed under the I/A system in Mass but a grey water system has to be in place as well. Sun-Mar and Biolet have general approval meaning local approval. There is also the incinolet which burns the waste into ash.
Some Mass Docs on composting toilets:
http://mass.gov/dep/water/wastewater/compgrey.htm
http://mass.gov/dep/water/wastewater/comptoi.doc
http://mass.gov/dep/water/wastewater/gwstudy.pdf

bil2054 · March 20, 2006, 09:44:25 PM

Well, true Daddymem. It would seem the different nomenclature is based on the fact that one is wholey aerobic, whereas the other does its heaviest work (munching up the solids) in an anaerobic environment.
As you mentioned, the most common method of dealing with the excess nitrogen seems to be recirculating a percentage of the wastewater, kinda like the EGR system in your car.
The Ozzi Kleen system seems to be specifically designed for irrigation; no mention of leaching field at all. This would take care of excess nitrogen and cut down on the fertilizer bill!
Of course, most jurisdictions in the US would prefer that we continue to use huge amounts of potable water to "flush and forget", and then tax us to death to build huge municipal (guess what?) aerobic sewage treatment plants!
Anyway, seemed like something worth checking for a small lot because of the reduced size requirement for, or possible elimination of, a leaching field.
It's something I was thinking about for my place, but the power requirements for compressors and pumps and all that stuff put me off a bit ( wayyy off grid!)
As an interesting (I think ) footnote, water with high levels of nitrates is a good growth medium for algae, several species of which produce large quantities of oil. These algae in turn are attractive candidates for biodiesel production feedstocks, with probable yields per acre far exceeding any other crop.
Do I smell a new cottage industry in the making?
[smiley=grin.gif]

Daddymem · March 21, 2006, 06:12:37 AM

Check Septitech for a system out of Maine that can use drip irrigation hoses for leaching. In the rock areas of Maine they just cover up the hoses with leaves and pineneedles. It can be used with conventional leaching areas too.

Daddymem · March 21, 2006, 07:03:31 PM

yeah I/A systems can run 9-15k plus standard septic system installation costs. My Advantex system will cost around 20k installed which isn't bad considering so many people pay that much and more for standard systems but it still stinks when I could be all set for 5k with a standard system. That extra 15k is so I can be less than the required 150' from my own well which, oh by the way, is not in the effluent plume of my system so I could be 50' away and have no adverse impact on it but regs is regs....

Daddymem · March 29, 2006, 06:49:38 PM

Wow. Just got back from a training class for Presby Environmental. I think they have some great products that look to be very promising, depending where you live (not as promising for us "red tape land inhabitants.") :-/

The Enviro-Septic system is leaching area replacement. This is really cool. It is a HDPE pipe with special ridges and tabs, surrounded by a fiber material, and finally a geofabric. The pipe is designed to cool the effluent which encourages settling for a reduction of Total Suspended Solids (TSS). It also breaks down the effluent to Nitrate at a high rate (next step...gas). Scum remains floating in the pipe and sludge settles to the bottom where it stays. The fibers and geofabric provide the majority of the surface area for the aerobic bugs to get their groove on so the soil around the system can't get ruined. The systems can be revitalized. They can be stacked and they can be constructed on severe slopes. The leaching area required can be reduced down to 1/6! The claims are this is cheaper to construct than conventional pipe and gravel systems. The class was taught by the company owner and he seemed to know his stuff.

The Presby-Maze may be interesting for those of you who want to tread lighter on our mother. This filters out effluent much better than effluent filter tees by creating a maze for effluent to flow through as TSS is reduced by solids forming globules on the walls.

The De-Nyte system appears to be extremely promising for reducing nitrogen. It consists of the Enviro-Septic system mentioned above constructed over chambers with wood chips as the carbon source. Since the Enviro-Septic units do such a good job breaking nitrogen compounds down to Nitrate already, the addition of a carbon source in an anaerobic environment means the oxygen free bugs can do light lifting to bring us down to just over 1 mg/l! (potable water limits are 10). A single family home runs around $3,000 and there are no mechanical parts, no dangerous chemicals, and no electrical parts.

I am now a certified designer and inspector for these...I hope I get to design one soon. I would love to get in with an outfit such as this company...maybe someday.

http://presbyeco.com/index.html

John Raabe · March 29, 2006, 08:10:00 PM

Interesting system Daddymem. It looks like a well worked out superior product.

Wish it was available on the west coast. Should be an opportunity for someone.

Perhaps shipping costs would get prohibitive? Wouldn't think the stuff is that heavy or bulky.

Daddymem · March 29, 2006, 09:09:32 PM

Shouldn't be a problem. The pipes could be shipped like HDPE pipes are. I forgot to mention, the pipes come in 10' sections that can actually be bent 180 degrees with no issue. The Mazes fold flat. The De-Nytes stack for shipping. They have approvals heading west so expect eventually it will get there.

glenn kangiser · March 29, 2006, 10:06:05 PM

Quote
I am now a certified designer and inspector for these...I hope I get to design one soon. I would love to get in with an outfit such as this company...maybe someday.

http://presbyeco.com/index.html

I had a cool thought, Daddymem--- If you get on for these guys, this new sewage system could be your bread and butter.

March 30, 2006, 06:17:29 AM

I wish...there might have been 200 people at this class and there are tons of classes over the next few weeks around here. I think the DEP through them for a loop by requiring them to certify designers and installers so they have this big push for training classes. I have never been to a class like this, typically we will get brown bag seminars and that is it. It does appear to be a very progressive company and their location in New Hampshire is awesome....

dail(Guest) · March 30, 2006, 03:29:19 PM

What part of the country (USA) are these systems allowed in? (South, South East, North, New England, Etc.?)
What lot size, do you think 1/6 cover?
I'm not totally savey on this paticular subject...d

Daddymem · March 30, 2006, 08:17:58 PM

Approvals in:
Maine
Massachusetts
New Hampshire
New York
Quebec
Vermont
Indiana

The manuals have all the information needed to design a system so if you are in a non-permit area these would be ideal. The greatest thing about them is they protect the soil...if the system fails, the failure is contained in the pipes without destroying the soil. They will probably work with you if you live in an area without approvals in order for them to "get their foot in the door".

JRR · March 30, 2006, 08:46:20 PM

They mention an "in-place rejuvenation process" should there be a "failure". What would likely cause a failure ... and what is the rejuv process?

Daddymem · March 30, 2006, 10:04:03 PM

Typical failure is to cut off oxygen, either by building it in the water table, too much fill, overloading the system, etc. Rejuve consists of exposing the ends and allowing oxygen bugs to do their job...they even had pictures of the process at the class.

Composting Toilets

dail(Guest)

bil2054

Daddymem

bil2054

Daddymem

dail(Guest)

Daddymem

dail(Guest)