Man kills 5 over zoning dispute in Mo.

[ScottA]

I'm not sure of the exact details but it looks like a man who felt his property rights where being violated by city officals opened fire at a city council meeting killing 5 people. Glen this sounds right up your alley. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23059784

[Sassy]

I read that to Glenn last night - I guess people are getting frustrated...     Only problem with that is more fuel for them to take away the guns.... 

[peternap]

Scott, from what I gather, he had a construction equipment company and it looks like the ordnance limited him to the number of items he could have. He got 150 tickets.
He was an outspoken regular at the town council meetings and not especially nice to the members. They charged him with disorderly conduct at least once.

He sued the Town for violation of his free speech rights and lost.
It seems he just snapped,
While I couldn't hold him as an example of how to win an argument, I don't think I'll shed many tears for the town employees he shot. Honestly, I'm suprised that doesn't happen more often.

[ScottA]

Only problem with that is more fuel for them to take away the guns.... 

That will be a dark and I suspect bloody day in American history.

While I couldn't hold him as an example of how to win an argument, I don't think I'll shed many tears for the town employees he shot.

I'd say he won the argument, cost him his life though. High price to pay for your rights.

[glenn kangiser]

I have seen many people right on the edge as those smug bastards sit behind the city or county supervisors desk in their cute little suits looking like something out of a Makeover Show, and pretend there's nothing they can do but delay the issues a little longer and make a few more reasons why the person cannot improve the community and make something off of their hard labor.

Good start.  Seems more cleaning needs to be done.  Too bad the guy lost his life.  The people in power will never understand why anyone could want to hurt them.  They are the center of the universe.

[Sassy]

"My Brother Went to War with the Gov't"  http://www.kmov.com/topstories/stories/kmov_localnews_080207_geraldthornton.9e51d0ab.html

Gunman's relative: "My brother went to war"

11:01 PM CST on Thursday, February 7, 2008

(KMOV) – The brother of the man who opened fire at the Kirkwood City Hall on Thursday evening tells News 4 that his brother was striking back at government officials that had been giving him trouble.   there's also a video at the link

[MountainDon]

I'm going to put my head on the chopping block.   

First of all though, we may not have all the pertinent details about the history of the situation.

The article mentions the guy had a construction or paving business, named Cookco Construction. Google the name and city and the address comes up. Google Earth the address and city and it comes up showing a well treed residential neighborhood. It looks very suburban, not rural. It doesn't even appear to be a commercial area.

The article states he had received 150 tickets for parking his commercial vehicles in the neighborhood. My neighborhood has had ordinances against parking commercial vehicles on the neighborhood residential streets since the early 80's. I believe most neighborhoods that look like his, or mine, from the air also would. My neighborhood, as many others might, will overlook the street parking of smaller sized commercial vehicles, like up to 1 ton trucks, especially if the neighbors do not complain. But if a neighbor complains, look out. Larger vehicles such as dump trucks, low bed trailers for hauling paving equipment, loaders, etc. are not permitted to be overnight street parked at all. And I think that is correct for most residential areas.

There are areas in my city with looser rules regarding commercial vehicles. This is one of the reasons for zoning departments. Most people would be quite comfortable knowing that no one on their street is going to move in and start parking an 18 wheeler in the front street with regularity. YMMV.

For years I worked under the local radar as far as having a business run out of my home. I had a 1 ton utility body truck I frequently parked on the street. I never had any complaints, but I tried to think of what others around me would like or put up with. Getting to know them and helping them with stuff probably helped me circumvent some of the rules.

We live in a society with rules. Some I agree with, many irk me to no end. However, no matter what, there's no place for gunning down people over parking tickets.

[glenn kangiser]

That is not totally how I see the issue.  This is just one incident out of thousands of daily abuses of power by government.

There is a farm here about 10 miles out of town.  They want to make a horse dude ranch out of it- have been jumping through hoops for a couple years and want to put in cabins to get a return on their investment and bring income into the community.

The lady has been nearly in tears talking to the building dept. who is obviously pulling a power trip on her.  She was recently at the Co. Supervisors with more of the same games.  It is causing her group -family? great monetary losses and they will bend over backward to do what they need to do to get it right.

Some cases they may not deserve it but I can easily see where people could be pushed over the line.

I offered to do a well in my old town that I could have made meet specs for $40000, but the idiots in charge felt it was necessary to let the town get ripped for around $400,000 because it was a newer method.  It had a great problem meeting the quality specs also.  Most of the leaders are their because they want power -- not because they are smart enough to lead.  I guess the job may then have it's dangers if they want to be jerks.

[StinkerBell]

I see both points made by Glenn and MtnDon.

The question for me is this. The tickets the man received, was that for him parking on his property or parking on city property. I do agree we need to have rules. If he was being cited for being on his own property I would be more compassionate about his issue, but if this was an issue about public parking I am not going to have the same compassion and his actions would be unwarranted IMO.

[Sassy]

Just some more unwarranted behavior towards a citizen, who was assaulted & called 911, by "public servants"  caution, the video may disturb you...

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/270.html

wonder how her husband feels about things right now...  let alone the trauma that the victim rec'd at the hands of police officers...  disgusting 

[MountainDon]

One thing at a time...

The tickets the man received, was that for him parking on his property or parking on city property.

We don't have those facts.  What I pick up from what I read "for parking his commercial vehicles in the neighborhood" is that the vehicles (plural) were parked on the public streets, not on his property. If that was/is the case, then I don't think he had a legal leg to stand on against the local government. OMMV

As far as parking such vehicles on your personal suburban property, there may be ordinances restricting that. Before moving in here we checked out the neighborhood restrictions and covenants. There was specific prohibition against vehicles above a certain weight... aimed at larger dump trucks, 18 wheel tractors, etc. It was fine with us. If I'd had a larger truck, there were, and still are areas where they would not have been a problem.

Now, that brings me to one local issue that I do have a problem with. They are trying to change the rules in one of those local areas where tractor trailers were allowed. The area is getting more and more built up and somebody came up with the idea that the trucks were an eyesore. Well, pardon me, but the trucks were there first. There has been discussion and now maybe the city will let the trucks stay IF they are garaged (trailer and all)! I say if the neighbors don't like the trucks let them chip in and pay for the necessary garages. Otherwise shut the heck up!

[Daddymem]

Holy crap! I can't even believe what I am reading here.  He KILLED people...over parking.  No way whatsoever can that be justified imho.  Glad he died and may his soul never rest in peace (unless he really did snap and was unable to tell that this was wrong, then may he rest in peace).  Whether the officials were right or not-there is no justification to take lives for this, end of story in my book. 

[Daddymem]

Wow that police video is very disgusting.  Hope they all lose their jobs and lose their life savings for that crap (nope not gunned down for it either).  I've always said there is a very fine line between cops and criminals.  btw anyone else see the irony...stark naked in Stark county jail...perhaps they took it too literally?  ok, ok bad one, can't help it but that's what came to mind.

[StinkerBell]

Daddymem,

I understand your position too.

I think though I could make a case for a person who just loses it. Although we do not have facts here I will make a couple of assumptions.
If this man has been living at his home with his work trucks on his property and was doing this for years and then an ordinance went through I could understand his frustration. Lets take that frustration up a notch. What if this man felt that not only was his land at risk but his lively hood to provide for his family? Some people just can not start up again in a new trade or new job. The old expression can't teach a dog new trick comes to mind. Anyways.... Right now in my mind I see it like I explained. A person who feels so threatened can just lose it. You push a person to hard to far something is going to snap, especially if they feel that their security is being threatened. I think and agree that life itself holds so much value, but what about this man who may have thought that his life was so threatened and being taken away? 

I wish I had more facts. Easier to make a decision. He can be a nut. He could have been pushed to hard....who knows...But I do allow for the possibility at this point that this man felt that his life was being threatened.....

I hope I made sense and you aint so afraid of moi!

[peternap]

Daddymem......this is a difficult issue to deal with. First, I agree with Don to a LARGE extent. If you live in crowded areas, you need rules. My burb house is an example of my being here first and the yuppies moved to the country. I have 10 acres, they have 1/4. They want rules...suits me but don't ask me to abide by them.

Shooting people over parking. On the surface it seems unthinkable. But lets play what if. What if he was there first and the rules were cramping his business so badly, he couldn't earn a living, feed his family, pay his bills. That puts him between the proverbial "Rock and a hard place". I can see him snapping and I have a lot of trouble working up any sympathy for Government Officials that get caught in the fallout.

I suppose I really am hardened, but I've learned that if you torment anything long enough, it just may kill you.

One very true rule in this world is that Violence is the Ultimate Argument. When you've tried everything else, a punch in the mouth is worth a thousand words. Not very PC, but still a solid fact. It may well be a short lived victory such as this case.

Unfortunately, a side effect of our quest to be ......civilized, is that people no longer walk up to the Mayor and clean his clock. They let it fester until they go over the edge and kill him. We might want to question the psychologists that cause the problem, about how humans are supposed to deal with anger and desperation. 

[Daddymem]

Sorry, threatening livelihood (and from what I have read so far not the case by a long shot) still does not justify killing.  Yes he got pushed and it sounds like he snapped.  Doesn't justify his reaction and no way they deserved death for whatever they did to push him over the edge.  I don't see anything difficult on this at all.  I can empathize with his situation but have zero sympathy with his reaction.  A punch in the nose and death are two entirely different countries.  If he did "lose it" and reality slipped  I hope he does rest in peace but still no way those that died deserved it. He killed PEOPLE, not government officials, PEOPLE, wives, husbands, fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, children, PEOPLE.
Don't worry, not scared of you stink.

[MountainDon]

Exactly Daddymem. The source of his frustration was not serious enough to warrant killing anyone, not an ordinary joe, no government official, no bitchy bossy neighbor, whatever.

If he "snapped" that does not absolve him of the seriousness of what he did. In a way it is too bad he's dead, and in other ways, no, it's not too bad.

[StinkerBell]

darn, I really try to scare people too.

I have a strawman question.....(yes I might be evil, jury is still out)

What if China invades us? They want to take our land and change our way of life?

Please understand, I do not know all the facts of the case. I am just curious where the threshold is.

[MountainDon]

Oh and YES, that Stark County Sheriff situation is absolutely inexcusable. Heads should roll, jobs be lost, bank accounts emptied for that.

It's a totally different matter.

[MountainDon]

If China invades us we bomb the $hit out of them to our best ability.

I don't think that's a double standard. It's different thing. Vandals at the border!!

[StinkerBell]

Why is it different? are they not , mother, fathers, brothers and sisters?


The answer I am seeking is where is the threshold for someone to protect or feel so threatened they respond?

[StinkerBell]

Oh yes, if you want to beat me up later. I understand.

[MountainDon]

If we understand the Missouri situation...

One man getting a bunch of parking violation tickets.
VS.
A foreign power invading the country of the USA, wanting to take all our land and change our way of life for all 300,000,000 million (illegals included) of us.

I don't think I need to say anymore. The situations are not comparable.

[Daddymem]

I'm sure we could go back and forth over scenarios and eventually figure out where the threshold is (probably figure out that the threshold differs wildly between people even).  Barring that I know one thing.  Tickets for not following the rules of the location you live or do business in is on one side of the threshold and a country invading another is on the other side of that threshold and there is a lot of distance between them. And another thing I know is I have not the will, the patience, nor the time to seek that threshold but I am confident I would know it if I ran into it.

[StinkerBell]

Yes...with your comparison I agree.

BUT

What I am asking is where is the threshold? Ruby Ridge? When is it our Right to protect our land and family and way of life?
What is that finite moment when we can do that?