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Offline NathanS

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Garage Ideas
« on: January 23, 2020, 08:40:45 AM »
Well now that the house is pretty well done, I am thinking about building a garage this summer. Being that there is a little one involved, I want to keep this build as simple and streamlined as possible. There was a part of me that wanted to integrate a breezeway from the house, cold cellar, upstairs office, a greenhouse... more I have thought about it, I just realistically don't have nearly enough time to do all that, and I will end up waiting years to have time to build something like that.

Instead I am thinking about a small stand-alone 20 x 24 -ish structure with a lean-to roof on one side for the tractor, and possibly even a vehicle at times / dry place for firewood.

Something like this:




Stick framed on a full foundation with a 4' stem wall below the frost line. Scrape away top soil, fill with stone and float a slab. Basically the same foundation I built for the house.

I was thinking 20' wide because I can get 20' SYP as attic joists that should (still need to run the numbers) be fine for storage of some household stuff and probably some lumber at times. I have no desire to deal with trusses. If I went to 24 or 28' I would have to spring for I-joists or floor trusses, or I would need to put posts in somewhere midspan-ish. Part of me thinks it might not be such a big deal to have 2-3 posts mid span (also need footings under them now), but I really don't know. Looking for opinions on that one.

For the roof looking somewhere around 8-12 for the gable and 3-12 for the lean to. Trying to squeeze as much width as possible under the lean-to before the overhang gets to head-butt height. At 3-12 I think I have around 8' of width if the lean-to roof just sits on the top plate.

I am also wondering if I should go deeper than 24' to something like 28 or 30. I need to call and re-confirm this, but when we were fighting with the local assessor over a ridiculous assessment on our house she said that any garage only adds 5k to assess property value. If that is true it might be worth going a little bigger.

Realistically the garage is only going to house cars during snow events or when they need to be worked on. Otherwise it really is going to be a workshop / place to do stuff during the winter.

Then there is location, the terrain view in my sketchup isn't right, so bear with me. House faces due south, terrain slopes probably at around 8% E-SE. Directly behind the house would probably be easiest, and require the least amount of stone fill for the slab.



The other location that may be nicer, is like this -



That is the location where I started thinking - hmm, a covered porch on the east side of the house (already planning to do that at some point in the future) that had a breezeway to connect it to the garage would be pretty awesome. With proper set back from the house the gable roof would be oriented perfectly for solar panels if we ever did that as well. That south side could also potentially be a good spot for a lean-to greenhouse. Greenhouse or breezeway or solar panels could probably be added on at some point in the future, though I do plan to use an ag metal roof and it may be a little tricky to cut into that.

The issue with this location is that I would need quite a bit of stone to fill in for the slab, and I also would potentially need to drag our storage shed somewhere else to have way for excavation.

I think I can do the garage for around 20k in the cheaper location, it would maybe be another 2k? of fill if I do it in the maybe-better location.

I am also debating just hiring someone to come excavate everything in one day, or buying a 3 point backhoe attachment for my tractor and doing it myself. I am not really sure I have the time though. Anyone have experience with those? We have about 2 foot of loose glacial till soil and then it's hard pan. I'd only be digging in the hard pan for the footings.

Looking for any general advice on how you wish your garage/workshop would be laid out, and also any adjustments you would make to dimensions or building ideas. And what you guys think of locations and all that.

Thanks for any feedback and feel free to ask any questions about details I have omitted.

Offline Don_P

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2020, 06:08:53 AM »
You'll not regret going larger, my shop is 24x30 and I wish it were double that size. For garage doors at least a 9' ceiling is better. I'd price the upper floor and roof framing and then price attic trusses.

If you haven't seen the narrow wall portal framing stuff for the garage door opening it is here, there is more on that site;
https://www.apawood.org/publication-search?q=TT-100&tid=1

Offline MushCreek

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 04:13:43 AM »
If you're wanting a two car garage, 20' is not wide enough. Sure, you can get two cars in there, but they have to be perfectly aligned and placed to open the doors. Add a workbench and tool box, and you're out of space. I'd go 24' wide as a minimum. Just have attic trusses built and be done with it. I'd go deeper, too, if you have the space.
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Offline GaryT

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 07:06:13 AM »
I remembered from years ago that I got some garage plans from Curtis lumber.  Googled that up, and lo and behold, Curtis still sells garage packages.  Might be worth investigating.  I know they are in the Albany area...don't know if they are over your way.
https://www.curtislumber.com/products/two-car-garages/

Gary

Offline Dave Sparks

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 07:28:55 AM »
Where is it located? If weather is an issue I like it attached with a breezeway or something. Hard to beat an attached garage....
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Offline NathanS

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 03:35:01 PM »
Thanks for the feedback everyone.

DonP - on 9 ft walls that is a good point for the door, I could probably also get the headroom by using another 2 courses of block after pouring the slab. Then I could still just stand 4x8 sheathing vertically.

Mushcreek - point taken on width. Right now ideally I would want space for my compact tractor under the lean-to, and then pull our car under there during snow storms. And pull the truck into the garage for snowstorms. Otherwise I don't see putting cars in there for any other purpose other than working on them. One of the first jobs would be splitting our old tractor to fix the PTO double clutch.

GaryT- that is funny on Curtis - that is where I ordered materials for the bulk of our house. They have a store in most of the towns around here. If you give them building plans they will actually calculate all the materials out for you, which they did, and got wrong. ;) If I don't get my lumber from an Amish sawmill that is where I would order everything.

Dave Sparks - Yes we have nasty winters, I have thought about a breezeway. I may actually place the garage so that I can do that in the future when I build a covered porch.


Response about trusses - I haven't used them but have some concerns.

1) when building the house they were a fair amount more expensive than 20' 2x8 attic joists and 16' 2x10 #1 SYP rafters
2) If I use 2x12 joists I can stuff R-38 insulation in between, put plywood down on top and drywall the ceiling and have my storage and insulation done with, simple and easy
3) I can't set trusses by myself, I would need at least 1 other person, maybe 2. It would either require a lot of planning or I would more likely just have to pay someone for the day, and I'm a little paranoid about having someone walking top plates that almost certainly wouldn't be insured. I'm assuming the delivery boom truck could swing them into place?
4) I also really enjoyed stick framing our roof, it was probably my favorite part of the carpentry work

If I go wider than 20' I would need a double 11 7/8 LVL and two posts mid span which would definitely be a knock against stick framing. Also I'd likely need two garage doors instead of one big one, which sounds like they may not fit a 20' wide garage. Unless I could run LVLs across the garage door opening that were strong enough to support the mid-span LVL for the joists.

Offline MountainDon

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 05:08:54 PM »
2) If I use 2x12 joists I can stuff R-38 insulation in between, put plywood down on top and drywall the ceiling and have my storage and insulation done with, simple and easy

Nathan, that caught my eye.  IF, by "stuff" you mean to compress the std R-38 fiberglass batts to fit in a 2x12 space, you are losing R-value. You don't lose a lot on R-38 with 2x12, but there is a small loss.  There are charts a search will find.
 
We have a 20 x 24 garage turned shop and I wish it was larger, but if it was I might still want more floor space.   ;)   However, I definitely would like a 9 or 10-foot ceiling height. That comes from handling lumber for carpentry, but would also be better for lifting engines out of a vehicle.  I'm not sold on using an upper floor for storage though.

We have a single 16' door in the 20'  wall.  I would like a 24 wide wall with two 9 foot doors much better.
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Offline GaryT

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #7 on: Today at 03:55:51 AM »
I echo everyone's comments regarding size...my shop is only 20X30 and if it was 30X40 it would still be too small.  I don't think I've ever met anyone who built smallish, and never wished they had gone bigger.  Heck, even the 10X14 garden shed I built is way to small for us!
Gary

Offline NathanS

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #8 on: Today at 06:02:10 AM »
Nathan, that caught my eye.  IF, by "stuff" you mean to compress the std R-38 fiberglass batts to fit in a 2x12 space, you are losing R-value. You don't lose a lot on R-38 with 2x12, but there is a small loss.  There are charts a search will find.
 
We have a 20 x 24 garage turned shop and I wish it was larger, but if it was I might still want more floor space.   ;)   However, I definitely would like a 9 or 10-foot ceiling height. That comes from handling lumber for carpentry, but would also be better for lifting engines out of a vehicle.  I'm not sold on using an upper floor for storage though.

We have a single 16' door in the 20'  wall.  I would like a 24 wide wall with two 9 foot doors much better.

Good points on the ceiling height. Another benefit of added ceiling height is that I could make the lean-to wing(s) wider with almost no difference in labor.

I didn't mean for the insulation comment to get too detailed. I think blown in is actually a little cheaper and would probably do that. Preliminarily, I doubt I will even insulate until after the building permit is closed out.

I echo everyone's comments regarding size...my shop is only 20X30 and if it was 30X40 it would still be too small.  I don't think I've ever met anyone who built smallish, and never wished they had gone bigger.  Heck, even the 10X14 garden shed I built is way to small for us!
Gary

Yeah I'm glad to have gotten this feedback.

Do you specifically wish you had more wide open space? What if I did a 20x30 main area, and then with 10' ceilings I would have clearance for lean-to wings that are around 12' wide. I could fully enclose one of them, uninsulated, and that would give me plenty of equipment type storage opening up more insulated workspace. A second wing would also mean both cars could be protected from snow without even needing to use the main area.

Offline GaryT

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #9 on: Today at 06:54:20 AM »
"Do you specifically wish you had more wide open space? What if I did a 20x30 main area, and then with 10' ceilings I would have clearance for lean-to wings that are around 12' wide. I could fully enclose one of them, uninsulated, and that would give me plenty of equipment type storage opening up more insulated workspace. A second wing would also mean both cars could be protected from snow without even needing to use the main area."

I very definately wish I had more than the 20X30 open space.   I have a large assembly table in the middle of my shop which also serves as outfeed for table saw,  along one wall is a combination Radial Arm and 12" compound slider bench.  Then there's a joiner, a planer, a wall full of shelves for power/hand tools, paints, glues, you name it.  there's also a band saw.  and a floor drill press.  And I have double doors to the outside world on one end.   No space for extra lumber, my framing/matting supplies are covered in dust, and on and on it goes.   

Think also about all the liquids you want to keep from freezing.   And the sheer weight of so many stationary power tools that makes moving them around a pain, even when they're on casters.

Having said all that....you either have a garage or a shop.  Tough to combine them both in one building.   Now, if you REALLY want to see some shops and garages, go here:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/

Good luck with the project, Nathan (and make sure you have those 9' ceilings!)
Gary

Offline jsahara24

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #10 on: Today at 07:45:45 AM »
Do you specifically wish you had more wide open space? What if I did a 20x30 main area, and then with 10' ceilings I would have clearance for lean-to wings that are around 12' wide. I could fully enclose one of them, uninsulated, and that would give me plenty of equipment type storage opening up more insulated workspace. A second wing would also mean both cars could be protected from snow without even needing to use the main area.

I have a 20x30 pole barn at my cabin.  It has a post in the middle of each "bay", so when you drive in the garage door there is a post on either side of your vehicle.  I don't use it for working on vehicles, but do use it for working on snowmobiles/atvs/boats/etc.  By the time I added stairs to the loft, a wood stove, workbenches, etc. i'm not sure that I could get even get a vehicle in there beyond my little car.  I am looking ato adding a lean too off the back to store my toys and keep the barn open for bringing in things to work on and hanging out. 

Id say minimum depth is 24' if you want vehicles in there to work on, no posts in the middle and 9' minimum ceiling height.  If you have the lean to you describe that would help for sure.  I am now planning a pole barn for my house and i'm thinking 30x40 with lean to's on both sides.  Give me room to store my toys on the sides and leave the barn open for projects. 

Here is a pic of a 20x30.  Good luck!




Offline NathanS

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #11 on: Today at 08:16:18 AM »
"Do you specifically wish you had more wide open space? What if I did a 20x30 main area, and then with 10' ceilings I would have clearance for lean-to wings that are around 12' wide. I could fully enclose one of them, uninsulated, and that would give me plenty of equipment type storage opening up more insulated workspace. A second wing would also mean both cars could be protected from snow without even needing to use the main area."

I very definately wish I had more than the 20X30 open space.   I have a large assembly table in the middle of my shop which also serves as outfeed for table saw,  along one wall is a combination Radial Arm and 12" compound slider bench.  Then there's a joiner, a planer, a wall full of shelves for power/hand tools, paints, glues, you name it.  there's also a band saw.  and a floor drill press.  And I have double doors to the outside world on one end.   No space for extra lumber, my framing/matting supplies are covered in dust, and on and on it goes.   

Think also about all the liquids you want to keep from freezing.   And the sheer weight of so many stationary power tools that makes moving them around a pain, even when they're on casters.

Having said all that....you either have a garage or a shop.  Tough to combine them both in one building.   Now, if you REALLY want to see some shops and garages, go here:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/

Good luck with the project, Nathan (and make sure you have those 9' ceilings!)
Gary

Thanks for in depth thoughts. I'm going to spend some time going through garagejournal. Non-freeze stuff is going to have to stay in the house. I am way too cheap to keep the space from freezing and our winters are just too severe.

It is more accurate to call this a workshop than a garage. I'm not really a car guy and the extent that they need their own house is limited to me not wanting to push snow off their roofs for the rest of my life.



I have a 20x30 pole barn at my cabin.  It has a post in the middle of each "bay", so when you drive in the garage door there is a post on either side of your vehicle.  I don't use it for working on vehicles, but do use it for working on snowmobiles/atvs/boats/etc.  By the time I added stairs to the loft, a wood stove, workbenches, etc. i'm not sure that I could get even get a vehicle in there beyond my little car.  I am looking ato adding a lean too off the back to store my toys and keep the barn open for bringing in things to work on and hanging out. 

Id say minimum depth is 24' if you want vehicles in there to work on, no posts in the middle and 9' minimum ceiling height.  If you have the lean to you describe that would help for sure.  I am now planning a pole barn for my house and i'm thinking 30x40 with lean to's on both sides.  Give me room to store my toys on the sides and leave the barn open for projects. 

Here is a pic of a 20x30.  Good luck!





More great feedback. Thank you. I think one of my next steps is going to be drawing out tools, work benches and storage.

8' ceilings are definitely out now.

I know pole barns are a pretty popular choice, my main concern with that is the severity of our winters would making heating it with a woodstove very difficult. Also I would say pole structures on my soil type tend to heave over the years.

Actually I am not really familiar with the permitting process for a pole barn, I am guessing you buy a kit with an engineers stamp on it?

Offline jsahara24

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #12 on: Today at 09:00:06 AM »

I know pole barns are a pretty popular choice, my main concern with that is the severity of our winters would making heating it with a woodstove very difficult. Also I would say pole structures on my soil type tend to heave over the years.

Actually I am not really familiar with the permitting process for a pole barn, I am guessing you buy a kit with an engineers stamp on it?

I'm up on the Tug Hill not too far from you so I understand your winter heating concerns.  I have the typical pole barn construction, 6x6 posts every 10' with 1x4s connecting them every 18" up the sides.  I have the roof insulated, and the second floor ceiling insulated.  In the winter I have plywood installed to block off the stairs and keep the heat downstairs.  The walls have 1" foam between the 1x4s so certainly less than ideal.  When its really cold I use a propane torpedo heater to bring it up to temp and then the wood stove will generally maintain the heat in the 60s.  When its moderate (32*) the wood stove can handle it on its own as long as you get it going a couple hours before you intend to work out there. 

I am thinking the best way to insulate a pole barn is like you did on your house, using foam on the outside then siding.....I currently just have t1-11 on my barn that is starting to show its age, so i'm thinking about going that route and then do a board and batten or horizontal lap siding.  We have a lot of amish in my area and they sell wood very cheap. 

As for permitting i'm not sure, things are pretty lax up my way.  If you are under 1500 sf you don't need engineered drawings.


Offline GaryT

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #13 on: Today at 09:28:15 AM »
Ah, the Tug Hill Plateau!  I lived there for 10 years, near the wildlife management area where I did the research for my PhD.   built this garage myself, with dog kennels (inside and outside runs) for my english setter birddogs.   It was insulated, but not heated.  built really good dog houses inside for each pooch that kept them warm to 30 below (I actually checked that several times).  It was 24 X 36, and I'd do that one again! 



Sorry for the slight hijack, Nathan.
Gary

Offline NathanS

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #14 on: Today at 02:16:59 PM »
I'm up on the Tug Hill not too far from you so I understand your winter heating concerns.  I have the typical pole barn construction, 6x6 posts every 10' with 1x4s connecting them every 18" up the sides.  I have the roof insulated, and the second floor ceiling insulated.  In the winter I have plywood installed to block off the stairs and keep the heat downstairs.  The walls have 1" foam between the 1x4s so certainly less than ideal.  When its really cold I use a propane torpedo heater to bring it up to temp and then the wood stove will generally maintain the heat in the 60s.  When its moderate (32*) the wood stove can handle it on its own as long as you get it going a couple hours before you intend to work out there. 

I am thinking the best way to insulate a pole barn is like you did on your house, using foam on the outside then siding.....I currently just have t1-11 on my barn that is starting to show its age, so i'm thinking about going that route and then do a board and batten or horizontal lap siding.  We have a lot of amish in my area and they sell wood very cheap. 

As for permitting i'm not sure, things are pretty lax up my way.  If you are under 1500 sf you don't need engineered drawings.

Ahh, I forgot you are on Tug Hill, it's coming back to me now. I'm so used to everyone being in warmer places than me.

Good info on the pole barn. I can call and ask the inspector about pole buildings, but I'd be surprised if he allowed it based on our past conversations.

For putting foam on the exterior, I agree that is probably the best way to go. But oof, it is so much more work than cavity insulation and if you don't find a good deal on used, the foam is really expensive. All the furring and structural screws add up too - totally worth it on a house, not sure about an occasional use building though. And then the trim details... I think doing that amount of work would undermine all the savings on a pole structure.


Ah, the Tug Hill Plateau!  I lived there for 10 years, near the wildlife management area where I did the research for my PhD.   built this garage myself, with dog kennels (inside and outside runs) for my english setter birddogs.   It was insulated, but not heated.  built really good dog houses inside for each pooch that kept them warm to 30 below (I actually checked that several times).  It was 24 X 36, and I'd do that one again! 



Sorry for the slight hijack, Nathan.
Gary

Nice looking building!

Offline Don_P

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Re: Garage Ideas
« Reply #15 on: Today at 06:01:01 PM »
I think you are limiting the possible widths of the lean to's  by only connecting them to the top plate of the wall. They can land on the roof of the main structure if needed to gain more height for increased width. Or to put it another way plate height does not have to dictate shed width.

 

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