2x4 rafters

[raybob]

How hard would it be to insulate a 10'x24' structure made with 2x4 rafters?

Batt insulation between the rafters, covered with osb, covered with tar paper, covered with metal?  Perhaps 1"-thick foam board with reflective surface in there somewhere?  Would this get close to R-30?  Or would spray-in foam work far better?

Bob

[MountainDon]

Spray in foam would give the most insulation per inch and at the same time would cost the most per inch. It is also the best for sealing into corners, around roof penetrations, etc.

How do you plan to finish the interior ceiling? This will have a bearing on the procedure used to insulate.

If you are trying to get the best insulation value for the buck you may want to think the entire roof package through. It may be advantageous to oversize the rafters to 2x10 with R-30 fiberglass batts.   :-/

When you get into multiple layers of differng types you also increase the time and effort for the installation, IMHO.

[raybob]

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_572_572&issearch=18343

just wondering...

[MountainDon]

Is this going to be a shed or something you live in? My feeling is it's going to be lived in at least part of the time because of the insulation question.

I've always wondered how those structures stand up to snow or high wind loads.  :-/

Somehow I'm bothered by the idea of living in something built with these. It might be better with some collar ties to help prevent the side walls spreading.  :-/

I have no experience with them I will admit. My personal opinion though is that conventional framing is not all that difficult to learn and will make a more solid structure. And I believe conventional framing will provide a greater sense of personal satisfaction once the project is completed.  YMMV

[raybob]

The thought is that something, or some collection of things like this, would allow an average Joe to assemble a small house (say, off the cuff, 10' x 24') very, very quickly.  Perhaps, one could nail a 10'x24' small house together in a day.  Which, in my mind, would be a pretty cool deal.

This stuff exists today.  For $150 plus some 2x4 and sheathing, a house could be built.  Just seems way too cool to this old guy.

What also seems cool is that the people who have put these kits together apparently haven't thought it through to the next step which is to have a collection of pieces that would allow an "average Joe" to build something using 2x6 walls and 2x10 roofs.  I'm sure there is a Chinese plant pumping these stampings out that would just love to produce more.

I'm just thinking about all of this.

I'm asking myself, if I bought 12 of these kits, could I put together a 4 building compound, something like the one John links to at:

http://www.countryplans.com/Alt-home-tour/

Again, without threat, this is just a thought.

One interesting outcome might be to engineer a series of connectors that would allow varied plans to be build with stock lumber.
Say, a 14x24 Builder's Cottage.

** Sept 27, 2007 TRADEMARK **

** Unless someone predates this thought.  :-)

John: Step up and help me start a business here.  There *IS* a market.

Bob

[raybob]

Note:  this is too good a notion not to have printed it out.

Regards.

[desdawg]

One problem I see is that there are no roof overhangs. Sooner or later this will lead to water problems IMO.

[glenn-k]

Being unconventional framing, codes and building departments will require that each individual building be signed off by an engineer, or tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars of testing for each item will have to be performed.  The system will stop it.  

[raybob]

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

George Bernard Shaw

p.s.  for the red state guys in here: Matthew 5:9

[jraabe]

For a structure you would actually live in, would electrify, would plumb, would heat and cool, you are better (far better) off using standard framing and building at least close to local code level construction and insulation levels. And this isn't just because of a tyranny of the building inspector... you should do that even if there are no codes where you are building.

Consider:
• Framing lumber is only 15% of the cost of a home. The real money is spent after the framing is up.  
• My advice is to spend the real money on the things that make the house sturdy, energy efficient and durable.
• You can live on a painted plywood subfloor with cheap light fixtures but if you don't have enough insulation or the roof can't be properly flashed & ventilated then you put ALL of your investment (time and money) at risk.
• Step into the future. Someday you will sell the place (or your kids will). Are you proud of what you are handing over? Would you be a buyer of this place in 25 years? Was it a good investment?



The above building compound uses simple, sturdy building techniques including a pier and beam foundation. It is built for the long-term (metal roof, siding over structural sheathing, roof overhangs with good drainage. The insulation levels are well above code minimum and it is very efficient to heat. This is an unconventional building that uses completely conventional framing materials and methods.

[raybob]

Okay okay okay.  Just wondering.

I examined some similar brackets and they looked pretty flimsy.  I think I have figured out how to modify them to work with 2x6s though.  Would be pretty easy, although no stronger.  In some ways, they are just another truss system, in another way they function like some Simpson ties.  

With better engineering, with thicker steel, bolts instead of wood screws, I think the approach would result in a far stronger structure than sticks and nails.

I won't mention it again though.
Bob

[jraabe]

Raybob:

I hope I didn't sound like I was putting you down - I do appreciate the thread and the question.

How else would I be able to get up on my soapbox!

And you are right, there are other types of framing connectors that can make the house sturdier AND easier to build. The Simpson Catalog seems to have new ones every month. (Click the link and run the mouse over the items to see little images of the hardware.)

[raybob]

As for sturdier, I'd prefer 24" of fully reinforced and grouted double-width 12" CMU, gun slits on the corners, with another 20" of reinforced concrete on top, entrance protected by blast chases, buried perimeter charges and sensors, etc.   Perhaps, 30 feet or so of bermuda, 20 feet of gravel, 10 feet of razor wire, another 20 feet of gravel, ANOTHER 10 feet of razor wire, and ANOTHER 20 feet of gravel.  I figure that'd keep all these crazed Tennessee meth addicts at bay.  Maybe.

But my wife says I'd have to live alone if I built that.

Sigh.

Bob