Author Topic: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"  (Read 24330 times)

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John_M

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"Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« on: February 22, 2006, 05:45:24 PM »
...that is what someone told me today at a lumberyard.  I was getting a material list together for a bid on my materials and as we were going over the list, he noticed I had Tyveck/tar paper.

He mentioned than Tyveck would cost more but would last longer.  He mentioned tht if the tar paper gets wet, it would break down.

Is this true?

I tried doing a search because I know we have talked about this before, but I just could not find it.

glenn-k

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2006, 06:34:29 PM »
Exactly false--- tyvek with dirt or surfactants can fail - tarpaper will still work.

Many 5 year or less old houses with tyvek fail if they are in problem areas - sometimes whole subdivisions.  Tarpaper does not seem to have the problem.



http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/housewraps_feltpaper_weather_penetration_barriers.html

From the above article:

Quote
"As it happens, I have felt paper on my own home, and if I could choose between felt and housewrap and do it over again, I'd still choose felt. That's because I believe that under certain circumstances, felt outperforms housewrap."
« Last Edit: February 22, 2006, 06:37:15 PM by glenn-k »

spinnm

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2006, 07:11:25 PM »
What a pinhead!  I'm sure that Tyvek will last a good long time....whatever it is...see it all over, never touched it.

Lasting is not the issue.  Performance is the issue.  For those who have to have this stuff....might be worthwhile to use Stucco Wrap instead of House Wrap.  Has some sort of drainage plane built into it.  Do they use it here in the Land-of-Stucco?  Nope.  My guess is that it costs a little more.

And, the quote that Glenn posted...it's by the author of the wrap comparison article.  What a hoot!

peg_688

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2006, 07:17:16 PM »
 John it could be the guy meant how long will you be counting on the tar paper, before you cover it with siding .

  The good thing , well one of , about typar is it is tough you can put it up and protect the building for a couple of months and it will hold up to wind and rain.

 Tar paper should be covered pretty quickly or it will be blown off/ torn overly weathered.

 I do like tar paper we don't use it often because people want to see the wrap stuff, it goes on quick , and it is tough.

 The jury is still out some what , as all factors have to be considered, and  a decission made.

 So if your going to be able to side over what you paper in each weekend , if it's a weekend build , atr paper would be my #1 choice.,
  
 If say your going to want to paper the whole place and spend the summer inside , so you need some weatherproofing , typar might be the way to go.

 So as I often say, it depends  :( on other factors . Sorry Glenn ;)

  Good luck , PEG  

Offline Kevin

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2006, 05:28:32 AM »
Tyveck has one advantage over the tar paper i feel is a big plus. It allows moisture to leave the house were tar people would hold it in. Plus it's easier to put up and in less time.
My 2 cents
Kevin

Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2006, 05:44:41 AM »
Felt is still slightly permiable and another article also says it outperforms wraps especially when they get contaminated along with sealing holes better.

Quote
DISADVANTAGES of wraps
Slightly more in initial cost than building felt. Availability of some products may be limited. Inferior performance as a weather barrier compared with building felt. Nail penetrations in housewrap are not self-sealing, as they tend to be in felts. Housewraps are not selective vapor permeable membranes: moisture vapor will pass through in both directions. As water-absorptive siding materials such as wood and brick veneer dry, moisture in vapor form can be forced through housewrap into sheathing and insulation. Less vapor-permeable building felt can better withstand reverse vapor migration.

Some recent studies appear to indicate that surfactants, a class of substances found in wood, stucco, soap and detergents, can decrease the natural surface tension of water and allow it to pass through housewraps wetting the underlying materials. According to anectdotal field observations, this process is most likely to occur in regions with heavy rainfall and when unprimed wood siding is placed in direct contact with the housewrap.

http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/Detailed/10362.shtml
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Offline Jimmy C.

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2006, 06:29:15 AM »
I am going with the tyvek house wrap. I bought a 9 ft x 150 ft roll, a bucket of 3000 buttoncaps, and a roll of sealing tape. I will let you guys know in 5 or 6 years how it worked out!



« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 06:30:15 AM by Jimmy_Cason »
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Offline phalynx

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2006, 08:18:03 AM »
I used tyvek on my shop.  It was very easy, but wow, it is extremely loud....  Sounds like the loudest crinkling paper you have ever heard.

Offline John_M

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2006, 08:56:31 AM »
It looks like Tyveck wins 3-2 with 1 "not sure" vote from Shelly.

Seems to be one of those unanswered questions!  Just like you say tomatoe and I say tomatoe (just doesn't have the same meaning on the internet I guess!))
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Offline bartholomew

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2006, 09:27:52 AM »
Well, if you're having a poll, I'll even things up...

I plan to use tar paper, maybe 30lb. This is in an area of heay rainfall on an exposed windy location. On top of the felt will be furring strips for an airspace and then the siding... not sure what kind yet. If felt is good enough for the roof, it should be good enough for the walls.

Offline John_M

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2006, 10:50:20 AM »
Great point about the roof!!  I don't see anybody putting Tyveck on under their roof shingles!
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Offline Jimmy C.

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2006, 10:56:05 AM »
http://www.slate.uk.com/Membrane.htm

http://www.slate.uk.com/Tyvek.htm


Pitched roofs are commonly identified as cold if they incorporate thermal insulation at ceiling level, leaving a cold loft, or as warm if they incorporate thermal insulation at the rafter line.

DuPont Tyvek® membranes are suitable for use in all forms of pitched roof and may be used in new-build, refurbishment and retro-fit projects. They protect the building fabric against rain, snow and wind and the risk of damaging condensation: they also help to achieve significant gains in energy efficiency, the size of those gains will be determined by how you choose to install the Tyvek® membranes.  

Click on the cold & warm links below for details of :-

Non-ventilated roofs     cold    warm
Roofs with no provision for airflow beneath the underlay will be more energy efficient than conventional, ventilated roofs.

Sealed roofs     cold    warm
Roofs with no airflow beneath the underlay and with all air leakage paths sealed will be even more energy efficient than non-ventilated roofs and they allow fuller use of the building volume.

Other roofs    warm
Tyvek® membranes can also be used in industrial roofs and in loft conversions.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 10:58:31 AM by Jimmy_Cason »
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Offline Mo

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2006, 11:07:16 AM »
We use house wrap from 84 lumber and had no problems with it until....
There is a gas well on the property above ours and the company brought in a rig to do some work on it. It through all kinds of oil all over our cabin on the side the well is on. Everywhere the oil hit we got a hole in the wrap, it just started shredding.>:( We took it down rewrapped and it was fine after.  

Offline John_M

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2006, 11:26:51 AM »
6-2 Tyveck...starting to look like a run-a-way win!
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Offline keyholefarmhouse

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2006, 02:34:22 PM »
I vote for 30# felt all over the place.  Roof, sidewalls, skirting @ house under river rock, whereever.
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Offline glenn kangiser

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« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 06:53:08 PM by glenn-k »
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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Offline Jimmy C.

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2006, 05:22:37 AM »
Good find Glenn.

It looks like I need to return to Lowes and see what the perm rating is on the tyvek I bought.

 Tyvek Housewrap problems"
Posted by Michael Cade on 00:11:40 11/01/102
  Include Original
Message on Reply  
Approximately 12 years ago my wife and I built our home in the East Texas Piney Woods. The house was built with wood framing construction, sheathing, Tyvek house wrap and covered with Vinyl Siding. Recently we began a remodeling phase to nearly double the size of this two story home. When I began to remove some of the vinyl siding for the addition I found the Tyvek was completely decomposed. It had split, cracked tore and now after 12 years has the consistency of newspaper or less. I have done some research and found little if anything on this issue. I have contacted Dupont and they have offered to replace the Tyvek, but my big concern now is that the original structure has no exterior vapor barrier at all. A rep. from Tyvek told me he thought during the period of our construction there might have been a malfunction in the process of making the Tyvek, but those issues have all been corrected. My questions
1. Should I NOW use Tyvek on the new addition.
2. Should I remove the old siding and rewrap the original structure with the Tyvek provided by Dupont.
3. Who should bear the cost of that process.
I am in the middle of framing the addition and need to make some decisions soon. East Texas is extremely humid year round and lots of rain.
      

1. "Re: Tyvek housewrap problems"
Posted by Rusty Rhodes on 13:20:10 8/26/104
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No, absolutely not. Tyvek has too high of a perm rating (breathability) for hot humid climates. There are numerous wraps that have low perm ratings that are much better suited for your climate.
A few are as follows:

1. Pactiv Green Gaurd
2. Dow Sytrofoam Weathermate and Weathermate Plus (the Plus is very expensive!)
3. Barricade, R-Wrap Xtra, and WeatherTrek, all made by Ludlow Coated Products.
4. The Lowe's brand housewrap that they stock is made by Pactiv and I believe has a 15 perm rating which is fine.

The best perm rating for your area is between 5-15. The Tyvek is 58!

 


« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 05:27:41 AM by Jimmy_Cason »
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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2006, 05:41:20 AM »
To me it seems a bit of a waste to spend so much money on a questionable product promoted by industry push and advertising  that may or may not ruin your house in less  than 5 years when felt is cheap and has been proven over decades.  Maybe not quite as tight a seal but maybe that is why it works and has a good record.  It is also not affected by surfactants -which can come from dirt, oil, the wood itself, or other things.  Felt seems to be the choice of people who do these studies.  Ultimately it is up to you.  For me I choose felt.


A kind of a non-opinion here - http://www.buildernewsmag.com/viewnews.pl?id=21
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 05:55:56 AM by glenn-k »
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Offline Jimmy C.

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2006, 05:54:36 AM »
What is the linear feet in an average roll of felt?
I know you overlap the felt as you go up the wall, can a run of felt be overlapped at the end of a roll to start a new roll? If so how is this done?
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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2006, 06:03:42 AM »
Going from memory 3 feet wide -2 squares (200 sq ft) on 30# 68 feet or so?  - 4 squares on 15# -same size roll -1/2 as thick - twice as long.

Use the same nails you pictured with the plastic caps- roofing nails and staples are also commonly used - the felt is fairly self sealing but these little punctures are not usually the source of problems - just nail off the end at a wood member - lap back so water will go down as it wants to without getting behind much.  I like PEG's saying -- think like water.  Start at the bottom -next layer should shed water over the layer below - like shingles do, so water runs out- not in.

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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Offline bartholomew

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2006, 07:57:27 AM »
My reasons for choosing felt:

- The wider rolls of housewrap make it harder to handle in the wind (tends to be gusty where my place is going).

- The big advantage of housewrap is that it is a better air barrier, but I will be using SIPs so there will already be a good air barrier built in.

- Might use cedar shingles and had read about the incompatibility of cedar and wrap.

- Just more convenient to use the same stuff for roof and walls... one less thing to price and order... and there will likely be less combined left-overs at the end.

For most situations, I think either would do an adequate job. But you should look through the links Glenn posted and see if any of the special conditions mentioned apply to you.

Offline John_M

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2006, 08:07:44 AM »
Really good article Glenn!  Answers alot of questions and explains things well.
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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2006, 07:18:16 PM »
I don't really care if someone is really convinced by the advertising and thinks they must have this partly proven cutting edge product then go for it.  It may not have a problem but when it does the seriousness of the problem is so bad that in some of the stories I read people were just having the fire department burn their house to the ground --- even some that cost $400,000.00.  

I'd really hate to see any of our members have a problem like that after all they have done, studied  and learned to make their own house.

If you seal a house up so tight it has moisture problems and you have to open a window to close a door, then what is the matter with using felt and having the moisture find its way out a little bit easier -- it seems the energy savings are counteracted when you have to burn down the house in 5 years. :-/

Just my 4 cents --I had to put it in at least twice. :)

Another thing --here I go again --- if per the manufacturer you didn't do this right -or you didn't do that right or you didn't do the other thing right every time one of these houses fails, then it seems you must need a masters degree in Tyvekology to get it right.  I don't think any of us have that and even if we did and the house failed something else we missed would have went wrong and they would offer to replace the product-
If it is so critical that even professionals fail, then why are we trying to use it - where is the leeway??  How about an old proven product with a little forgiveness. :) Many of us have thousands in hard earned cash in these things -

What was that saying --fool me once -uh --uh ----ya can't get fooled again. :)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 07:31:31 PM by glenn-k »
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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2006, 07:37:27 PM »
Note that the perm ratings advertised are only on new clean material - dirt, soap, wood oils. any of a million surfactants could void that rating and make the product usless.

Don't forget that the screen wall helps also if you  can work that into your design,  - a space behind the siding to provide an additional drainage plane.

Note that a roofer in the lumber yard told my wife to use 30# - not mess with 15# although I have seen a lot of articles using it and I am using 15# in less critical places.

Time is money to contractors --- rush --rush --rush --- slower and less product output means less and slower cash flow.  Housewrap is fast.  McDonalds is fast.  
« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 06:19:12 AM by glenn-k »
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Offline glenn kangiser

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Re: "Tyveck will last longer than tar paper"
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2006, 10:01:52 PM »
Here is some information for those who want to use Tyvek:

Q. At some point, I read that Tyvek house wrap should not be used directly under cedar shingle siding. Is this true? In the thread, it mentioned that Dupont knew this was a problem and invalidates the Tyvek warranty in this application. I am in the process of adding 1k sq ft to my house and we are putting up red cedar siding. I would like to get clarification before I go to him with my concerns. What are the facts that you all have about this problem, and if it's true about Tyvek, where can I find a copy of the Tyvek warranty that states this invalidation of the warranty. Its not too late to put up tar paper, if that is what is called for?
A. Tyvek can be used under any cladding including brick, stucco, vinyl, cedar siding, and stone. Proper installation under each cladding is essential to ensure Tyvek provides the maximum level of air infiltration resistance and bulk water holdout. Major concerns are the proper installation and flashing. Any manufacturer's warranty will be voided if installation and usage instructions are not followed. It is recommended that the cedar siding be installed per manufacturer’s guidelines and recommendations by wood siding associations, such as the Western Red Cedar Lumber Association, including priming all surfaces including the back and ends before installing. Additionally, the use of furring strips will help promote drainage of any incidental water that may penetrate the cedar cladding.

From:
http://doityourself.com/lumber/qnaexterior1.htm

Note that the furring strips make it into a rain screen wall giving a secondary drainage plane as mentioned above.

READ THIS ONE _VERY GOOD _EASY TO UNDERSTAND-- excuse me ---I got all excited. :-/
http://fourseasonsroofingandsiding.com/Phantom.Siding.Leaks.htm
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 10:17:12 PM by glenn-k »
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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