Building in PA vs. NY

archimedes · July 14, 2012, 11:58:17 AM

Hey all,

I've been looking for land along the NY, PA border. I'm trying to determine whenther one state is better than the other.

I'm finding that prices seem to be cheaper in NY. But property taxes seem to be higher in NY.

I've also been looking into the requirements for septic in PA and they seem daunting to say the least, compared to NY.

I was wondering if anyone has either looked or purchased in this area and if so could you give me some feedback on what you think about which side of the state border is better and why.

new land owner · July 14, 2012, 05:27:01 PM

Not sure what the issue with septic is in PA but you may want to check out the new requirements in NYS.

The newest requirement is a filter so solids can not make it to the leach field.

Nothing I want to deal with, cleaning the filter, but you do what you have to to get approved.

July 14, 2012, 09:08:35 PM

I live in PA and bought in NY for my build. The primary reason was I could get a lot (a whole lot) more land for the same money. I didn't think about the taxes as much.

The septic issue was the second reason I chose NY. I belonged to a pa hunting website were people built their own cabins. PA has a "camp" waiver that allows you to bypass building codes except septic. For the waiver you have to sign an affidavit that you will never live their as a full time residence. You are not allowed to receive mail there. And yes, some of the neighbors will turn you in.

For the septic, the amount of nightmare stories I've read and heard from others was high. There is one septic enforcement officer in most jurisdictions. They are usually a former septic contractor and are friends with and deal with all the other septic contractors on a regular basis. They are not normally friendly to owner installs. If contracting out, not as big of a deal, although I've heard prices are a little higher in PA. I'm not as familiar with that, so ask around. Either way you will probably want a "pass for conventional gravity fed septic and deep whole test" clause in any property contract regardless of state. Both sides of the state are pretty rocky, so you will run into the same problems as far as soil quality. I found NY septic code to be clearer and easier to understand for an owner install.

Most jurisdictions in NY require and engineer drawing, testing, and stamp. From my asking around the average price for a conventional gravity fed septic system is around $1000. I called around last year for a dual chamber septic tank with the new filter requirement. My recollection was it was $50 more than the other.

PA does still allow you to drill your own water well, which NY does not.

I may ruffle some feathers with this, but in my experience the people from NY were a lot friendlier than the people from PA.

Another thing to watch for in the area is gas drilling and mineral rights. That is Marcellus shale region. NY has very little drilling and is not issuing many permits so there is less to worry about, but still worth researching. Most of the permits issued will be in that region. So far home rule is the law of the land in NY, so local towns can opt out and ban drilling. Other than health reasons, it could be a quality of life issue. Heavy trucks coming and going all hours of the day and night on tight rural roads, giant plumes of fire in the sky all night, etc., are not high on the positives for most people looking on moving to the country.

rick91351 · July 15, 2012, 07:34:30 AM

Quote from: Squirl on July 14, 2012, 09:08:35 PM
snip..............................................
The septic issue was the second reason I chose NY. I belonged to a pa hunting website were people built their own cabins. PA has a "camp" waiver that allows you to bypass building codes except septic. For the waiver you have to sign an affidavit that you will never live their as a full time residence. You are not allowed to receive mail there. And yes, some of the neighbors will turn you in.
snip............................

I don't think I would ever agree to that. I would pull the permits and make a second residence 'just in case'. Rest assured there are plenty neighbors to turn everyone in no matter where you go...............

Seems strange they can keep track of stuff like that but will let your property be stole blind and not say thing. But cross their imaginary line in the sand..........

archimedes · July 17, 2012, 03:34:56 PM

Thanks for the replies.

Squirl, it seems I'm hearing the same horror stories for septic in PA. I found these statistic for percs in PA; 75% pass but only for an above ground mound, 5% pass for inground gravity fed, 20% fail. Those above ground mounds are pretty expensive ($9k -$20k depending on many variables) and require two septic tanks and a pump to pump the effluent up, and possibly electronics to time dose the flow, plus the effluent is in pressurized pipe. Seems like there is a lot that can go wrong with a system like that. Much more so than with a gravity fed system.

Since this will only be a part time getaway house, I'd like to take advantage of the recreational cabin exemption, but the septic requirements seem daunting.

I think I could DIY a conventional in-ground gravity fed system but the mounds seem like too much work to DIY.

Is this a typo? $1000 ??

Quote from: Squirl on July 14, 2012, 09:08:35 PM
From my asking around the average price for a conventional gravity fed septic system is around $1000. I called around last year for a dual chamber septic tank with the new filter requirement. My recollection was it was $50 more than the other.

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of pricing were you getting on the septic tanks?

July 18, 2012, 09:59:28 AM

No that was just the engineer stamp and process. They design the system and certify it was constructed right. I think it was $1500 for a dousing pressure design (uphill), and $2000 or more for alternatives such as mounds or peat systems.

As far as pricing of the system, I found double chambered concrete tanks with a filter for $725, delivered and dropped in the hole. The distribution box was $75. A load of stone delivered was about $300 for 11 yards and for the largest system for a two bedroom would need two loads. A mini excavator was about $300 for a day from the local Home depot or rental store. You have to then buy the piping, with what I remember was around a $1 a foot. The fabric costs almost nothing. For just materials it was about $2000 for a DIY septic system plus and additional $1000 for the engineer stamp. Infiltrators are a little more expensive than the stone, but NY septic code allows a 25% reduction in field size and I hear they are a little less work.

If you ever talk with septic engineers almost no site ever "fails." They just pass for other designs. They are usually so cost prohibiabitve that it is basically failing. That is why I put the exact language from my land contracts in quotes, so that if it "passes" for a $20k design, I could still walk away from the contract.

Yes contractors and engineers make more money on the mound systems, but in fairness they are doing more work. A mound has to truck in hundreds of yards of sand, which is more expensive than stone. The largest part of that price is the diesel fuel. And as you mentioned there can even be electronic dosing for that too, which requires more money.

This is how I approached land deals in the past. I find a property and talk to the owner. I may negotiate a contract or price with the stipulation that it pass a perk test. During this process of back and forth, I would let them know I want to check out the soil with a few holes. I walk around, find a spot for the septic, and dig. You never know what you will find until you dig. It may be bed rock with 12 inches of top soil. This will also help when it comes to putting in a foundation. A simple perc test is easy to do and there are a dozen descriptions on the internet. This will let me know off the bat whether to invest the time into the negotiation process. In the contract I have the stipulation it will pass for "pass for conventional gravity fed septic and deep whole test." The perk test is usually included in the engineer's fee. If it passes, I've spent $500 to that point and I'm almost guaranteed a property I can build on. If not I can walk away and not have to spend $20K on a sand mound. I would also call the building inspectors and/or maybe hire an engineer that speciallizies in septic systems. The inspector has seen every system and soil in the area you are building. They will know where the good soils and land are and were they aren't. I asked around found that in my area the soils around rivers tend to be gravely and perk extremely well, and almost to fast. The soils far away from these up the mountains tend to be heavy clay and may not perk. The very tops of mountains tend to be solid rock with just a little soil covering it. It helped me to narrow my search, know what risks I was taking, and how much I may want to bid.

Squirl · July 18, 2012, 10:12:57 AM

Part of the reason I felt that the whole process I described would be easier in NY is just an observation I've noticed about the way things work. I have the notion that when handing someone a check for an opinion, a person is more likely to get the answer they are looking for.

AdironDoc · July 18, 2012, 12:52:54 PM

My seasonal camp is in Herkimer county, NY, and my septic was put in just last week. They listed my camp as a 3 bedroom (really 2 and loft). The cost for necessary engineering report was just under $300. After excavation, poly-tank placement, distribution box and three 60ft leaching runs, it cost me a hair under $5K, total. They were not happy about needing to travel 2 miles through rough mountain trails to get their equipment in but it didn't appear they added any surcharg for that. Same company on the guest camp (1 bedroom) quoted $3K because of smaller requirements.

Doc

archimedes · July 19, 2012, 08:22:23 PM

Wow Doc, sounds like you got real good deal. Thanks for the info

Quote from: Squirl on July 18, 2012, 09:59:28 AM

This is how I approached land deals in the past. I find a property and talk to the owner. I may negotiate a contract or price with the stipulation that it pass a perk test. During this process of back and forth, I would let them know I want to check out the soil with a few holes. I walk around, find a spot for the septic, and dig. You never know what you will find until you dig. It may be bed rock with 12 inches of top soil. This will also help when it comes to putting in a foundation. A simple perc test is easy to do and there are a dozen descriptions on the internet. This will let me know off the bat whether to invest the time into the negotiation process. In the contract I have the stipulation it will pass for "pass for conventional gravity fed septic and deep whole test." The perk test is usually included in the engineer's fee. If it passes, I've spent $500 to that point and I'm almost guaranteed a property I can build on. If not I can walk away and not have to spend $20K on a sand mound. I would also call the building inspectors and/or maybe hire an engineer that speciallizies in septic systems. The inspector has seen every system and soil in the area you are building. They will know where the good soils and land are and were they aren't. I asked around found that in my area the soils around rivers tend to be gravely and perk extremely well, and almost to fast. The soils far away from these up the mountains tend to be heavy clay and may not perk. The very tops of mountains tend to be solid rock with just a little soil covering it. It helped me to narrow my search, know what risks I was taking, and how much I may want to bid.

I think that this is a great idea and probably how I will handle any land negotiation. The realtors in PA keep saying that the language of the contract should read "any passing perc test". If done that way I could get stuck with an alternative system costing 10's of thousands of dollars.

July 19, 2012, 10:11:12 PM

Quote from: archimedes on July 19, 2012, 08:22:23 PM
Wow Doc, sounds like you got real good deal. Thanks for the info

I think that this is a great idea and probably how I will handle any land negotiation. The realtors in PA keep saying that the language of the contract should read "any passing perc test". If done that way I could get stuck with an alternative system costing 10's of thousands of dollars.

I'm going to suggest the KISS principle, assuming something like it is allowable in PA or NY. In WA state, one of the forms you can use in the purchase and sale contract for any property is a feasibility study addendum. There is a blank for the number of days desired, which is negotiable between buyer and purchaser. Basically, the buyer has that period to determine to their satisfaction if property is suitable for their intended use...period. If during the feasibility period anything comes up that buyer doesn't approve of, they can terminate the contract and have their earnest money returned.

To me, it seems much simpler than having to define all the individual criteria that are acceptable and allows for any other odd things that may be discovered while investigating the property. I can't imagine any MLS not having some form of feasibility study contingency form available, especially for buying vacant land. Just out of curiosity, are you calling the real estate agents that have the properties listed, and therefore are representing the seller?

When I bought the property where I live now, I used the feasibility study addendum rather than an inspection addendum even though it had a dwelling on it. That isn't typical for residential properties, but the place was such a fixer, and I had some other concerns about easements and right of ways that would take some time to research.

Minicup28 · July 31, 2012, 11:58:57 AM

One thing you should do is to inquire with the County Health Dept. about any prior PERC tests. I found that my property had been tested and passed for a simple system several owners ago. I renewed the permit and saved all the trouble of testing.

k9gardner · July 13, 2013, 03:26:26 PM

Quote from: Squirl on July 14, 2012, 09:08:35 PM
PA has a "camp" waiver that allows you to bypass building codes except septic.

I've been looking for corroboration of this, and haven't been able to find it anywhere. I don't see anything in the PA Code or the ICC Building Codes... and I really would like to know. Anybody have references?

I'm on the lookout for a situation where I can get community sewer hookups but still have a rather primitive "vacation shack" structure. Not easy to find information on requirements.

archimedes · July 13, 2013, 05:07:33 PM

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/034/chapter403/s403.1.html

Exclusions and exemptions see #11.

You'll need one of these
http://www.paconstructioncodesacademy.org/pdfs/Rec_Cabin_Exclusion_Form.pdf

Remember that it does not exempt you from any septic rules. And any development that has sewer and water can have covenants and restrictions that take precedence over the exclusion.

k9gardner · July 13, 2013, 08:36:07 PM

Thanks so much for this. I must've been "warm" in my search for this before but didn't know the right term. "Recreational cabin" it is! I hear you re the possibility of overarching covenants and restrictions, and I have someone trying to look into that right now with regard to the specific property I'm potentially interested in. It's definitely appropriate to point that out, it's a significant concern.

That being said, if I am building a structure that is recreational now but with a thought of bringing it up to code later, I assume I would be able to make the improvements, withdraw my exclusion, have the place inspected and perhaps have a livable residential structure. Thoughts?

July 14, 2013, 02:55:24 PM

Doesn't sound like that would be easy.

Once the walls are closed up how will the inspector look at the plumbing or electrical? How will he check the nailing of the sheathing once the siding is on, or check for rebar in already poured footings?

I suppose anything is possible. But it might be easier to just inspect it from the beginning.

firefox · July 14, 2013, 07:16:58 PM

archimedes is right, if you live in an area that requires permits, they will most likely require you to
completely dismantle the structure and then have you start over from scratch. I would check with the building inspector before going down that road. You might be able to have him inspect it while you are building it and save the records for you so that you can continue on at a later date.
Be very careful how you proceed.

k9gardner · July 14, 2013, 07:32:05 PM

Archimedes, Firefox, thanks so much. I certainly should have thought that through a little better, eh? What you're saying is sound advice. Thankfully I haven't built anything yet.

Squirl · July 15, 2013, 08:39:49 AM

Disclaimer: This is not legal advice, it is for discussion purposes only.

You have to provide an affidavit (sworn under oath with penalty of perjury) that the cabin will be constructed for recreational purposes only.

QuoteBy signing this statement in the presence of a notary public, I attest to the fact that the cabin to be constructed at the site listed above:
1.Will be utilized for recreational activities only.
2.Will not be utilized as a domicile or residence by myself or any other person for any period of time.
3.Will not be used for any commercial purposes.
4.Will not exceed two stories in height (excluding the basement, if any).
5.Will not be used as a place of employment.
6.Will not be a mailing address for bills or correspondence.
7.Will not be listed as any individual's place of residence on a tax return, driver's license, vehicle registration or voter registration.

I have never heard of a cabin being inspected later. By my plain reading of the affidavit, the answer of later code inspect that it is not allowed. Normally inspections are required at the dig depths and pour of the foundation, the rough framing, the electric and the final close in. Inspecting those after the fact would require digging up the foundation and removing the complete interior walls.

The original intent of the law was from the log cabin manufacturing lobby, which is pretty big in PA. They manufacture log cabins with logs in the 4 inch thickness range. It is not standard for code and would not pass energy code requirements. This allows people to build cabins with them as vacation places.

Most stick frame cabins can easily pass code inspections. One of the few areas I have seen people save a few dollars by going the camp route was by cutting down or eliminating the insulation. Most of PA doesn't have high insulation requirements and personally I don't like living in a house without it.

k9gardner · July 15, 2013, 11:10:18 AM

I think your reading is correct, it has to be. Obviously the inspectors need to see everything, ground up. I'm so early in the discussion phase here, it's all good, no harm done. I may want to set up a "recreational cabin" to use for its intended purpose and as camp HQ while building a separate code-worthy structure. Or I may try to dive into the latter and bypass the former! My goal for now is to have a vacation getaway, and my goal for the future is to have a possible retirement-ready structure, so I have to weigh the upside and downside of each approach; how much time it would take till I have something available to me to use, how much it would cost each way, how much labor would be involved, etc. I know that people sometimes build non-code-worthy outbuildings on their property when there's already a residential house there; I'm trying to do the reverse it seems. It's really good to have everyone's input, I really appreciate it.