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Started by fcpnorman, February 20, 2012, 10:57:15 AM

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fcpnorman

I found this site and have spent many hours reading about all your projects. This is a great resource for owner/builders. I own a piece of property in Northern California. We bought it with the intention of building a cabin on it. We intended on building an "off the grid" cabin. California now has a residential sprinkler ordinance that is required for all new homes( most of the country is now covered by this). Does anyone have any experience with residential sprinkler systems that are off the grid? I would assume it would need to be a dry system for the freezing temps? I am also guessing you would need to have a holding tank and some sort of pump to automaticly activate if you had a head activation. Also does anyone have experience with off the grid well systems? What kind of PV system is required to run a well?

Also- from an off the grid perspective. I am considering installing a PV system with a propane generator as a back up. It all seems very expensive, but when I compare the cost of hooking up to PG&E and the monthly bills- it may actually end up being chepaer to go off the grid. Any random thoughts? We would like to build about a 1000 square foot cabin perhaps 1 1/2 stories.

We are just in the planning stages and if we cannot get around the fire sprinkler stage- that may be all it ever is- a plan........

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

cryandavis

Can't speak to the sprinkler issue, but we had an off-the-grid water system in our cabin in Maine with a generator when our local utility wanted $30K (in the mid-80s) to run the line.  PV wasn't that helpful for us, but we installed a nice 8KW Winco PSS propane generator on a pad with remote start.

First recommendation to make it work is to install a large well pressure tank - I'd recommend the biggest you have room for as they aren't expensive.  Ours was about the size of a small fridge had maybe 30gal of draw-down before the pressure disappeared.  Add a tankless propane water heater and you have all the modern comforts without the need to run the genset except a couple times per day.

Second recommendation is the spend a little bit more on the well pump if you have a deep well.  There are several kinds, and the better ones (which I think are called capacitor start, capacitor run) have lower starting amperage demands -- which can be a big deal if you're running a generator and make your own amps.  The well pump may be your only 240V load and the biggest draw you have on your generator, at least for the first fraction of a second.

There are a couple books I might recommend that helped me:  "Cottage Water Systems" by Max Burns, and "More Power to You" by H. Skip Thomsen which talks about cheap chinese diesels but I thought had some great tutorials.  These may not be in print but your library may be able to find them.  Good luck!


Squirl

w*

To both of you. 

I don't know about the residential sprinkler requirement.  They just repealed it in PA in one year it was so unpopular.  Apparently CA is only one of two states that has it currently in effect. Hopefully you can do some research and let us all know of this topic.  I hope it doesn't stop your build.

An off grid system can be as expensive as you want it to be.  Homes don't use power, people do.  It depends on how much power you want to use.  It is based more on occupancy than square footage. Thankfully the market has been flooded with panels, lowering the cost of the whole system.  When the power company quoted me maybe $8,000 to run a line, that was the clincher for me.  I wanted them anyway.  My estimate will be around $5000 for my 2kw PV system.  A 2kw system will put out more power for you in CA vs. mine in central NY.  I have an electric start gas generator.  The propane generator will kick up your costs some.

I don't know what your regulations are on rainwater catchment, but that can help a lot with a offgrid system.  Deep wells can take a lot of power.  Or you could have a cistern/holding tank and just run a pump to fill it, then use a lower wattage pump for daily use.

Erin

In Kansas, the construction of single-family dwellings are still exempt from the sprinkler requirement (even if you're in an area that actually is governed by code, which I'm not). 
The last I knew, duplexes were exempt also, but they were fighting that one out and I never heard the final result.  So that would be suggestion number one:  Make sure you actually DO have to meet the sprinkler requirement. 

And if you are, I would go with Squirl's suggestion of the cistern/tank.  If you set it up high enough, you don't even have to worry about how to pressurize it. 
The wise woman builds her own house... Proverbs 14:1

fcpnorman

Funny- I am a firefighter- but I am also not overly supportive of fire sprinklers. The systems being implemented in California will not put fires out- just slow them down. In the current economy it has placed an additional $2-$4000 per home price tag. The ordinance was poorly thought out an dplanned for rural areas. If you are on a well and lose power- no sprinkler system, and if your pipes freeze and break- no sprinkler system. There have been a lot problems with rodents chewing threw pex tubing int he attic and causing leaks. I beleive that idea of the sprinklers is good- but the implementation has been poorly thought out.
I figured I would have a large storage tank and even build it up off the groundto create some head pressure, that would reduce water pumping. There are many cabins in the area that exist off of solar and generator. My thought with the PV system is that I may have to have some constant source of power to supply a small pump to keep the sprinkler system charged. I am afraid they are going to want a dry system- which would include a pressurized air tank. They used to use an antifreeze in the lines- but somehow it separtated and when it was discharged through the sprinkler heads it actually caused an explosion.
I have really enjoyed reading all your posts and looking at all your photo's. This is a great site. Our property is beautiful, and it would be great to build on it, I too am hopeful I can figure something out with the sprinklers.
Thanks.


davidj

Where are you in N California?  We're just finishing off our place in Plumas County.  Fortunately we got in before the sprinkler law hit.

However, at 5K feet and winter temps down to 10F on a regular basis we've still not had it freeze inside the cabin despite no heating.  The trick is to do an insulated crawl space dug out to a few ft below grade to suck heat from the ground, lots of insulation and make sure you've got a few big south facing windows to pick up any sun.  With pex and a bit of glycol I think you'd be pretty safe assuming you're not too much higher or further East than us.

RIjake

I'm a professional Firefighter as well and see the benefits of sprinkler systems frequently.  However, I work in an urban city with an excellent municipal water system.  Most of the systems that I see are wet systems in occupied buildings.  They typically do a good job of holding the fire in check until we arrive.

As far as residential systems, especially in rural off-grid residences, I feel they are all but useless.  You'll get barely enough flow to make a difference.

I'm building an off-grid camp in Maine.  My well produces 20 gpm.  I have a Grundfos SQ 115VAC deep well pump that will run off a pure sine wave inverter.  The only other AC loads that I may have are the ignitor for the on demand hot water heater and maybe some LED lights.

Check out this thread that I started for my solar setup http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=12013.0  .  I've decided to go with two 110W Evergreen panels with two 330 Ah 6v golf cart batteries with a 6000W backup generator.

fcpnorman

I spend a lot of time in Plumas County, I kayak the North Fork of the Feather River all the time. Plumas County is one the most beautiful sections of the Northern Sierra. Our property is in McCloud, on the slopes of Mt. Shasta. There is a subdivision of 3 acres parcels that are all off the grid. We bought the property a few years ago and have been working on clearing and burning piles.

We went back and forth about building or selling and buying a cabin. We are leaning heavily towards building. I wish we would have pulled a permit before the sprinkler ordinance came in. After research, it does not seem insurmountable, just another complication in an already complicated process.

I too am a professional firefighter, and have seen the benefits of fire sprinklers. I just think that the law does not provide much room for off the grid. I don't want to get too far off topic, but it is hard to hear all the talk of "green building" and the future of renewable energy, when the banks and the local governments and codes do not really support true green building projects.