Water Pressure Tank Woes-Please Help

Started by waggin, July 03, 2011, 09:21:52 PM

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waggin

My water pump has been cycling on & off every few seconds while running a faucet.  Advice was to check tank pressure for the bladder in the 32 gallon metal water pressure tank.  No pressure, as suspected.  Tried to reflate bladder, but it wouldn't take air.  Bought new Schrader valve core and tried again; no dice.  Took out Schrader valve core completely and tried again with no luck.  At no time, can I measure any air pressure at the valve stem.  All of this was done with the pump off and an open hose bib to allow pressure to bleed.  My (new) guage on the top of the water pump would never budge during the process.  Did the bladder collapse and seal itself against the hole where the valve stem is?  Sure seems odd that I can't get any air into the system.  Oddly, when I ran the pump with the water intake shut down, I didn't get any water into the pump from the tank.  

Any additional trouble shooting tips?  Figure for the time and expense of replacing just the bladder on a tank (if it is the bladder) I'd be better off just buying a new tank, as this one is probably several years old.  I've also heard from a couple of people that they'd never try replacing the bladder again.

Any advice would be appreciated!

Edit:  Should I try running through the above with the bottom valve/outlet hose removed next?  Could the pump not allow me to pressurize through it by putting air into the valve at the top of the tank? 

If I do need to buy a new tank, I'm leaning toward the Flotec 35 gal at Home Depot
http://www.homedepot.com/Plumbing-Pressure-Tanks/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbudt/R-100086226/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
vs. the Wellsaver 36 gal from Lowes.
http://www.lowes.com/ProductDisplay?partNumber=160657-48324-LPT-36S&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=1038565&catalogId=10051&cmRelshp=req&rel=nofollow&cId=PDIO1

My thought is the fitting at the bottom is way more accessible on the Flotech, and the built in metal legs would trap less moisture and provide less slug and rodent habitat underneath vs. the plastic base.
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy. (Red Green)

Ernest T. Bass

I'm no plumber, but it sounds like the bladder's torn... And yeah, you're probably better off getting a new tank. We've lived with a torn bladder for a little while before.. You have to keep re-pressurizing the tank every so often as the air gets absorbed into the water.

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waggin

What's got me baffled is that I can't get the tank to take any air whatsoever.  I tried different air chucks and even a manual (bike) tire pump in addition to removing the Schrader valve core.  Do I need to drain the tank first, then try to air it up?  Would the pump keep the air from allowing the water to push through it?
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy. (Red Green)

Dave Sparks

When you try and pressurize a bladder with a hole in it the air just pressurizes the water on the other side of the bladder. This is really a poor way to pressurize water compared to an airtight bladder. I think you know what to do ???
"we go where the power lines don't"

glenn kangiser

Yup... new bladder tank is about it.  Adding air is a very short term solution as Andrew mentioned as it is absorbed by the water similar to CO2 in a Seven-up....

Dave, torn bladders are generally caused by too many Pacificos.   [waiting]
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

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glenn kangiser

Not sure on the not taking air, but I would guess that the Shrader seat is too deep in the tank fitting and the core is not getting depressed. 

Possibly back it out a bit with the tool and try to air it then tighten it after enough air is in to temporarily get you going, or try a different chuck that may push deeper toward the core.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

Ernest T. Bass

Quote from: waggin on July 03, 2011, 09:21:52 PM
All of this was done with the pump off and an open hose bib to allow pressure to bleed. 

Does this have something to do with it?

Our family's homestead adventure blog; sharing the goodness and fun!

waggin

Quote from: glenn kangiser on July 04, 2011, 02:49:06 PM
Not sure on the not taking air, but I would guess that the Shrader seat is too deep in the tank fitting and the core is not getting depressed. 

Possibly back it out a bit with the tool and try to air it then tighten it after enough air is in to temporarily get you going, or try a different chuck that may push deeper toward the core.

Are you referring to the Schrader core or the valve stem and jam nut?  I actually tried this with an air pump that didn't have a chuck that requires the little plunger to be depressed, and the tank still wouldn't take air even with the Schrader core removed from the tank valve stem.   ???

Quote from: Ernest T. Bass on July 04, 2011, 04:55:08 PM
Does this have something to do with it?

I would think having an open hose bib would allow air to displace water in the tank, regardless of bladder/diaphragm condition.  Even with that, I still can't get the tank to take any air whatsoever.  Somehow, it seems like either there's an obstruction in the Schrader valve, or the tank is completely full of water.  Still, if it was full of water, I'd think I could force the water out by pressurizing with air.  That's not the case; I can't get any air into the tank at all.  Is it possible that the inlet/outlet at the bottom could somehow get plugged?  Can the diaphragm tear and plug the inlet/outlet?

Seems inevitable that a new tank is necessary, and I'm ok with that.  However, I'd love to understand a little bit more about the mechanics of this.  Thanks for the responses everyone!
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy. (Red Green)

glenn kangiser

I was just referring to the stem on the Schrader core.  I have had some that the detent pin in the air chuck would not push down.

If you took out the core then that would eliminate that problem - next thing in the why would be if the while fitting holding the Schrader would remove.  I think even if the hole is plugged at the bottom and the tank is full of water you should be able to get a burp out of it even if it only takes a little air.  [burp]

It should be a rather simple assembly - a bladder with air or nitrogen over it.  Seems odd to have that problem getting air into it.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.


JRR

If you are trying to put air in the tank with water captured in it... it ain't gonna happen.  Could be the bladder has split into pieces and a chunk has closed the out going port, keeping you from getting air into the other port.

I agree with others ... replaced the whole assembly.  I also got more life out of gauges if I removed them from service and stored them in a dry location ...after necessary readings are made. When using gauges, I like to use a pair at the same time .... if there are not discrepances, then I can usually trust the gauge reading.

Dave Sparks

And when the OP talks about using pressure, how much?
"we go where the power lines don't"

waggin

Pretty sure compressor was set at around 80 psi, but will make sure before I throw in the towel.  Pressure switch appears to be a 30 psi trigger with 50 psi cutoff, as guage will read close to 50 psi after pump runs.   I can't play with this tomorrow, but will take a peek on Thursday.

Quote from: glenn kangiser on July 04, 2011, 08:14:19 PM
I was just referring to the stem on the Schrader core.  I have had some that the detent pin in the air chuck would not push down.

If you took out the core then that would eliminate that problem - next thing in the why would be if the while fitting holding the Schrader would remove.  I think even if the hole is plugged at the bottom and the tank is full of water you should be able to get a burp out of it even if it only takes a little air.  [burp]

It should be a rather simple assembly - a bladder with air or nitrogen over it.  Seems odd to have that problem getting air into it.

No burps, flatulence, or other gaseous emissions or noises of any sort...sorry. [noidea'
Edit:  Maybe I'll try to find something skinny enough to put through the Schrader valve while the core is out to see if there is any obstruction at the top of the tank.  If I take the jam nut off, then the valve stem would likely fall into the tank, wouldn't it?

For replacement, is there a better manufacturer that people recommend other than the big box store ones I linked to above?  Reviews of those are less than stellar, with both of them having reports of failed bladders in less than a year.  Ugh, doesn't anyone build anything well any more?
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy. (Red Green)