Copper water joint stopped leaking?

Ernest T. Bass · December 10, 2007, 11:16:29 AM

Hi all!

We had a frost-free sillcock wasn't so frost-free once we started getting sub-zero temperatures here in da' U.P.... We had picked out the longest one we could find, but it still didn't make it all the way through our 16'' cordwood walls, and we also had the spigot sticking out about 5'' on the outside to minimize splash on the walls. We were hoping that the shut-off was far enough inside the wall to stay unfrozen.. Nope. $:-\$

Anyway, we managed to find a 2' frost-free sillcock to replace the old one. Unfortunately, a 1/2 hour swap took all day, as we struggled to get all he joints leak-free. First our threaded joints were dripping, then, after "unsweating" other joints to tighten the threads, the sweat joints started leaking, etc.. After taking it all apart and re-doing the whole thing, we were still getting a tiny leak where a brass shut-off is sweated into the line. It was only dripping once every 10-15 minutes, so we called it quits until Monday. Well, it's not leaking anymore. I'm a little unsure of the joint... Should we just leave it or try running more solder in at the risk of opening another can of worms?

I've never had so much trouble with sweat joints before.. This brass shut-off just doesn't want to take. I've learned with the threaded joints to tape them, smother them with paste and wrench 'em till I'm red in the face... I always though that over-tightening them was bad, but they'll leak otherwise...

JRR · December 10, 2007, 11:42:07 AM

I always find it easier, especially on/for reworks, to include a pair or more "unions". They are available for all pipes and tubes ... sweat copper or whatever. Gives you a chance to manage the drips better. Here's a link showing a plastic union that uses an o-ring seal:
http://www.koicymru.co.uk/boiler2b.htm
.
sweat copper: http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/52-332-copper-unions-and-couplings/copper-union-253344.aspx
.
One trick for holding back water while sweating half a union in place ... is to stuff the upper pipe/tube with bread. After the sweat joint is make ... poke out or flush out the well-cooked bread.

December 10, 2007, 11:44:28 AM

Are you sanding the joints and or wire brushing them to get all the oxidation off leaving them bright and clean before you apply a good soldering flux to all joints?

After well fluxed, you should heat the joint all around until it is hot enough that touching the solder to it causes the heated metal to melt the solder -- not the flame, and capillary action will draw the melted solder into the joint.l

Alternatively, you could take it apart again and make sure the solder was tinned all around - re-clean and pre-tin everything to make sure it will be a solid solder joint. You may have to heat it as you stick it together to get it to fit if you do this.

About the only reason for it not soldering all around is a dirty joint. One other consideration is to get the water all well avay from the joint by draining it down -- sticking a dowel in the hole to dis-place it or some other means. Water near the joint can splash up into it and steam preventing the solder from flowing properly.

glenn kangiser · December 10, 2007, 11:46:11 AM

Running more solder over a bad joint will only leak later.

Ernest T. Bass · December 10, 2007, 12:45:23 PM

Yeah, I clean everything meticulously and use lots of flux on the fittings. I usually have very (seemingly) good joints. Because of the position of the shut-off right next to the wall, I had a hard time cleaning it. However, I seemed to get it pretty good with some steel-wool, and since it was already tinned I figured there wouldn't be any problem the second time around.

Like I said, though, it stopped leaking..

Do you think it'll start leaking again in the nearby future, as it was probably a poor joint? It's in an easily-accessible place, so maybe we should just wait and keep an eye on it. $:-\$

Boy, out of the whole house-building process, the plumbing sure was the most unpleasant..

I hate working on wells, too. It's like a fear of heights, only freakier.

PVC drain plumbing is ok, cuz' it always works. Just really toxic is all. Framing is the most fun, and the roofing is great, too. (Nice views

) Electrical is fine, finishing takes too long, but water pipes... Ugh

December 10, 2007, 12:55:30 PM

Hard telling on the leaking -- if it's mechanically strong enough and has stopped it may stay stopped.

Working on wells -- you are always waiting for something to go wrong because the consequences can be bad if it does.

PVC is not probably not as bad as some make it to be -- generally not much toxicity except in manufacturing or burning of it. It has been around for years and there are not masses of proven health problems from it.

I have learned to take nearly all health scare reports with a grain of salt because they are usually promoted by someone with an agenda, then in ten years the opposite story comes out.

Examples -- eggs, salt, butter, margerine, more...

Ernest T. Bass · December 10, 2007, 01:04:20 PM

Well I can tell you that working indoors with that PVC cement for extended periods of time is not good for you.

I've gotten the most terrible headaches from that stuff...

It sure goes together faster and more trouble-free than copper, though.

Out of curiosity, any idea WHY the leaking might have stopped? I can understand a threaded joint.. The compound getting worked in or something, but a sweat fitting?

glenn kangiser · December 10, 2007, 01:15:52 PM

I have seen flux stop a leak and later open up again. Water also contains solids that could stop a leak for a time or maybe permanently.

ScottA · December 10, 2007, 01:59:44 PM

If it leaks again you'll just have to fix it is all. If you're worried about it take it apart and redo it.

Now you know why plumbers are so expensive.

Scott

December 10, 2007, 11:36:00 PM

My opinion on that self healing leak is that it could very well stay nonleaky for years. I had one like that back home. It was okay for about 5 years before we moved. I wasn't worried about it as it was in the basement and if it started leaking agin it would not hurt anything.

Soldering on previously wet lines is notoriously prone to leaks in my past experience. The bread thing does work.

I wouldn't worry about PVC for supply lines.Like Glenn stated it's been around for decades and there's not been any hint even that I've seen, about it being bad for our health. The glue though that's another thing. Ventilate the workspace.

I like PEX, but you do need special tools.

glenn kangiser · December 11, 2007, 12:14:02 AM

You can get compression fittings for the pex but more expensive and not the versatility of the special fittings.

MountainDon · December 11, 2007, 01:15:57 AM

Right on Glenn.

You have to balance the cost of the number of compression fittings you need and the cost of the tool plus the lower cost of the standard PEX fittings. Then add in the likelihood of using the tool again in the future. It's a numbers game.

glenn kangiser · December 11, 2007, 01:25:55 AM

With the tool there are cool manifolds ad lots of things to make the job much easier. Some companies limit it to plumbers or contractors who take the approved instruction and test.

If it was easy everybody would want to do it, eh, Scott? hmm

Actually it's not too bad if you follow instructions.

MountainDon · December 11, 2007, 01:30:30 AM

Quote from: glenn kangiser on December 11, 2007, 01:25:55 AM
Actually it's not too bad if you follow instructions.

EVERYthing, ANYthing, is not too bad, not too hard IF you follow the instructions!!

Those are the last thing to be taken out of the box all too often, though.

ScottA · December 11, 2007, 08:25:33 AM

QuoteIf it was easy everybody would want to do it, eh, Scott?
Quote
Actually it's not too bad if you follow instructions.

Some things the instructions just don't cover. Truth is plumbers can have a hard time with these leaks too. Difference is you don't have to deal with it he does and then he has to garantee it after. That's what you're paying for.