20x32 A frame cabin Central KY

[nathan.principe]

Awesome that would be great.  Things Im interested in will be what you are using for a tank ( or tanks), how large the drain field, and of coarse costs

[EaglesSJ]

Nathan if you dont want to wait for pics the link listed below is the exact system that I am building. We are running our black water only into this system and already have a gray water system set up. This will significantly decrease the load on the tank/drain field. My friends family has been using a system almost identical to this with the exception that they have a single 100 gallon tank versus 2 55 gallon tanks for over 20 years and have never had to pump it once. From the research I have gathered the key is to not run your bathroom sink/shower/kitchen water into the septic system as all of the chemicals kill the bacteria that digest your poo and turn it to liquid to be drained out easily in your gravel field.

As for cost. I spent 241 today buying all the pvc and the toilet. I also spent 7 each on the 2 55 gallon drums. I still need about $40 worth of gravel for the drain field. So Basically about $300 from start to finish. That is if you dig it all yourself which is quite a job considering that lower drum has to be 5 ft deep

http://www.wikihow.com/Construct-a-Small-Septic-System

[texasgun]

Did you consider panels if you look at my system that i did myself I used them and it was alot easier than gravel and might be cheaper depending on delivery charges

[Alan Gage]

I am building it every bit as good as the septic systems that worked just fine years ago. To be honest I never understood the whole code thing anyways as the deer and coons never ask anywhere where they can dump their waste at. Most commonly by the river they are drinking out of. Always find it strange the things people come up with to make money.

People create a lot more waste in a confined area than racoons do. What isn't a problem for one person out living in the woods turns into a big mess of contaminated ground water when more people start moving in. It used to make sense to dump sewage directly into the rivers in NYC and they're still trying to get all that straightened out.

If people built them the way they were supposed to codes wouldn't be necessary, but too many people don't (won't). When I removed my old septic tank I found there was no leach field and that the tanks dumped 10 feet away from where my shallow well was sunk.

Alan

[nathan.principe]

EaglesSJ, I am familiar with that link, I accually started to construct one myself early on in the project.  The barrels I came across did not have the detachable lid, rather I had to cut it off and reattach it.  When I buried the barrels they crumbled under the weight of the soil, of coarse the reassemble joint was the weak point.  If I try this method again( if the inspector lets me, doubtful) I would of coarse use the proper barrels and prob back fill with gravel around the barrels as opposed to soil.  Can wait to see yours!

[MountainDon]

Barrels buried in the ground:  It seems to me that if the ordinary barrel is empty and buried it will collapse sooner or later irregardless of what the fill is. It may take longer in some soil types. It might be better to dig a pit and construct a tank from concrete blocks with reinforcing steel in the cores.

[EaglesSJ]

EaglesSJ, I am familiar with that link, I accually started to construct one myself early on in the project.  The barrels I came across did not have the detachable lid, rather I had to cut it off and reattach it.  When I buried the barrels they crumbled under the weight of the soil, of coarse the reassemble joint was the weak point.  If I try this method again( if the inspector lets me, doubtful) I would of coarse use the proper barrels and prob back fill with gravel around the barrels as opposed to soil.  Can wait to see yours!

Not sure why you had to cut the tops off the barrels. Mine dont have detachable lids either. Neither do the ones in that link I posted. All you have to do is install a cleanout up top. I should be posting pics of the completed project later today assuming it doesnt start raining. Im in right now eating lunch.

[EaglesSJ]

People create a lot more waste in a confined area than racoons do. What isn't a problem for one person out living in the woods turns into a big mess of contaminated ground water when more people start moving in. It used to make sense to dump sewage directly into the rivers in NYC and they're still trying to get all that straightened out.

If people built them the way they were supposed to codes wouldn't be necessary, but too many people don't (won't). When I removed my old septic tank I found there was no leach field and that the tanks dumped 10 feet away from where my shallow well was sunk.

Alan

I understand that it is a good idea to have some sort or standard to help protect the environment. However it is carried overboard to the point it infringes on the freedoms of humans. Examples being stair treads having to be a certain height, outlets having to be spaced so far apart, etc. If I want to build a house with only 1 outlet in the whole place or 14" risers on my stairs I should be able to.

Im not going to go off on a Patrick Henry speech or anything but our government and its rules are sucking the life and last red cent out of people because you cant do anything without checking to make sure it is ok with someone first. People have lost sight of what it is to be human. We used to drank from rivers and streams and poop in a hole in the ground after eating wild meat. Our immune system is worth more than people give it credit for.

Now that I went way off topic I will jump back on topic and ask a question. Would it be better to use straw or gravel for my leach field? I have seen alot about both. Straw is much much easier to get down in the woods. Anyone care to chime in?

[OlJarhead]

Im not going to go off on a Patrick Henry speech or anything but our government and its rules are sucking the life and last red cent out of people because you cant do anything without checking to make sure it is ok with someone first. People have lost sight of what it is to be human. We used to drank from rivers and streams and poop in a hole in the ground after eating wild meat. Our immune system is worth more than people give it credit for.

Now that I went way off topic I will jump back on topic and ask a question. Would it be better to use straw or gravel for my leach field? I have seen alot about both. Straw is much much easier to get down in the woods. Anyone care to chime in?

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin.

Amen brother!  It seems to me (perhaps I am biased) that those of us who've served in the military (specially veterans) believe this more strongly then most others.  I could be biased though

Anyway, I'm with you all the way on this one and might add this:  we have laws against harming one another or infringing on their rights and this really is all we need.  If someone does something stupid and it hurts others they ought to be prosecuted for it.  If on the other hand they do not harm others then what business is it of others to tell them what they can or cannot do in a FREE country?

Life, Liberty and Property!

[Squirl]

I haven't commented yet on your build.  I have been exceptionally jealous at the progress and the quality that you have accomplished.  Your photos are great too.

Ok, now to my other point.  My main concern with burying barrels is not with just the weight of the soil on the sides, but on the top.  They have very little strength.  All codes require septic tanks that can stand an X amount of weight per foot from individuals or vehicles traveling over the spot where they are underground.  This could lead to a serious injury.  Also with plastic it tends to float during storms and can stress the pipe joints.  Steel rusts, I can cut through the steel on a 55 gallon drum with metal shears.  I would be concerned with longevity and possibility of collapse.

Concrete is pretty cheap, just heavy to work with.  You can build a tank concrete and rebar liner to the size of or larger than two 55 gallon drums with 10-15 bags for $50-$60. You may even be able to build it around the 55 gallon drum. Concrete is the only type of tank approved without special conditions under our code for a reason.

[Squirl]

We used to drank from rivers and streams and poop in a hole in the ground after eating wild meat. Our immune system is worth more than people give it credit for.

True.  I'm not going to disagree whether people should have the right to do this either.  But thankfully people got more knowledge.  Life expectancy when everyone used to do these things was much, much shorter.  Deer and coons also do the same thing, are extremely disease and parasite ridden and have a life expectancy of 3-5 years.  I always am reminded of an exchange between my father and grandfather.  Neither ever liked going to the doctor.  My father had an ear infection and was arguing with my grandfather about going to the doctor.  My father got angry and in protest of going to the doctor said "yeah, well what did you used to do in the old days?"  My grandfather looked at him and stated, "We went deaf."  There are no guarantees in life, but I like increasing the odds in my favor.

[EaglesSJ]

I haven't commented yet on your build.  I have been exceptionally jealous at the progress and the quality that you have accomplished.  Your photos are great too.

Ok, now to my other point.  My main concern with burying barrels is not with just the weight of the soil on the sides, but on the top.  They have very little strength.  All codes require septic tanks that can stand an X amount of weight per foot from individuals or vehicles traveling over the spot where they are underground.  This could lead to a serious injury.  Also with plastic it tends to float during storms and can stress the pipe joints.  Steel rusts, I can cut through the steel on a 55 gallon drum with metal shears.  I would be concerned with longevity and possibility of collapse.

Concrete is pretty cheap, just heavy to work with.  You can build a tank concrete and rebar liner to the size of or larger than two 55 gallon drums with 10-15 bags for $50-$60. You may even be able to build it around the 55 gallon drum. Concrete is the only type of tank approved without special conditions under our code for a reason.

First point you addressed was the weight of dirt on top of the drums collapsing under the load. I weigh 174 lbs and I have literally jumped up and down on top of these things while working on them and the dont really do anything. The sides cant collapse because they are filled with liquid unless you think that the ground will exert enough pressure to make them implode. Not saying that they wont ever do it Im just saying that I have personally witness others in my area use this sort of system flawlessly.

Second point was that plastic floats. A 55 gallon barrel filled within 7 inches of the top with liquid sewage is not going to float under any circumstances. Not to mention the weight of that dirt on top of it that you were talking about earlier.

Third point, steel rust. Not one single item on this system other than the stainless steel screws used to hold the flanges to the barrel is made of metal. Everything is either PVC or plastic. So not sure why it matters that steel drums rust.

Now as for the concrete septic tanks. Most new tank installs around here are of the 500 gallon variety and are made of fiberglass. I have seen concrete used on larger homes or where you want to be able to drive over it but that is not the case with me. As a matter of fact we will be building a deck over our tank and such by this time next year. I hope I didnt come off as rude, I was just trying to convey my message that there is more than one way to skin a cat. If I had of had the $3000 to get a nice concrete tank and lateral lines installed I would have but I didnt. For $300 I think this will suit us just fine. It has obviously worked for alot of people in the past.

[Alan Gage]

I understand that it is a good idea to have some sort or standard to help protect the environment. However it is carried overboard to the point it infringes on the freedoms of humans. Examples being stair treads having to be a certain height, outlets having to be spaced so far apart, etc. If I want to build a house with only 1 outlet in the whole place or 14" risers on my stairs I should be able to.

Im not going to go off on a Patrick Henry speech or anything but our government and its rules are sucking the life and last red cent out of people because you cant do anything without checking to make sure it is ok with someone first. People have lost sight of what it is to be human. We used to drank from rivers and streams and poop in a hole in the ground after eating wild meat. Our immune system is worth more than people give it credit for.

I agree with everything you say in principle but people are flawed and as soon as money and power come into the picture too many can think of only that. In my mind codes aren't for someone building a cabin in the woods but rather for the developers putting up thousands of houses to sell at a profit. Thankfully in your case they seem to be letting things slide but I can see where it would be a tough line to draw.

Anyway, my reason for this second post was to say that in my first post I didn't mean to question the way you were doing anything. Just stating my opinion that while I'd be very frustrated if I had to follow a bunch of codes and spend big $$$ on permits I can certainly see why they exist. Sounds ridiculous in some places. Thankfully around here things are still pretty relaxed and people use common sense (mostly).

Alan

[Squirl]

I don't think I explained myself as well.  I don't want to give you the impression that I think it won't work, I just wanted to pass along some of what I had learned and my personal concerns. 

For the plastic flotation issue, I have never seen any float. All the building inspectors in my county and the septic engineer I hired would not approve a fiberglass or plastic tank without soil testing, because they had seen them float.  Not lift out to the ground float, but an inch or two which was enough to damage the pipe joints in and out and the system to fail.  I don't know what kind of soil you have or your groundwater table, or how it performs in a rainstorm.  There is usually this warning by manufactures when you go to buy the tanks.  I would have greatly preferred one of these, because I could have installed it at my leisure with my front end loader, unlike a concrete tank.

Although water is not compressible, it is displaceable, specifically into the inlet and outlet holes at the top.  I would not consider it of much structural value. to either the walls collapsing or the top. There will be an air gap between the top and the water anyway.  I certainly can't say you are wrong about the strength of their tops.  I have used them as a stand and jumped on them too. 

I read the conversation of using drums with removable tops and didn't know if you were going with steel or plastic.  I didn't see and pictures of the drums.  It is a moot point.

I certainly didn't want to imply that you should go out and spend $3000 on a full fledged septic system.  I like your idea of the split black water/grey water system.  I assume you would need a smaller sized field.  I was trying to suggest a thin round concrete slab just large enough to put the drum over with a little lip on the outside with a 2-3 inch concrete wall formed around and a small 3-4 in. concrete top with rebar would take care of the collapse issue that others have raised and the floatation issue I was warned about.  Sort of like building your own smaller concrete enclosure and using the drum as the water tight tank inside. It wouldn't cost very much.  Off the top of my head probably $60.  It would require extra effort, but judging from what I've seen, you aren't one to shy away from hard work.

I will try to leave a more detailed messages going forward.  I apologize.

[Squirl]

More than one way to skin a cat is one of my favorite expressions. 

Mortared salvage bricks, field stones, or block. Soil-cement. Rammed earth with rebar.  Sand bag construction.  Just trying to throw out ideas on reinforcing the sidewalls or top if you want them.

[EaglesSJ]

Ok here are a few more pics. All that is left now is to fill with gravel then landscape fabric and then dirt. If the tanks get crushed by the dirt wouldnt the puny little corrugated pipe get crushed as well?

[EaglesSJ]

I don't think I explained myself as well.  I don't want to give you the impression that I think it won't work, I just wanted to pass along some of what I had learned and my personal concerns. 

For the plastic flotation issue, I have never seen any float. All the building inspectors in my county and the septic engineer I hired would not approve a fiberglass or plastic tank without soil testing, because they had seen them float.  Not lift out to the ground float, but an inch or two which was enough to damage the pipe joints in and out and the system to fail.  I don't know what kind of soil you have or your groundwater table, or how it performs in a rainstorm.  There is usually this warning by manufactures when you go to buy the tanks.  I would have greatly preferred one of these, because I could have installed it at my leisure with my front end loader, unlike a concrete tank.

Although water is not compressible, it is displaceable, specifically into the inlet and outlet holes at the top.  I would not consider it of much structural value. to either the walls collapsing or the top. There will be an air gap between the top and the water anyway.  I certainly can't say you are wrong about the strength of their tops.  I have used them as a stand and jumped on them too. 

I read the conversation of using drums with removable tops and didn't know if you were going with steel or plastic.  I didn't see and pictures of the drums.  It is a moot point.

I certainly didn't want to imply that you should go out and spend $3000 on a full fledged septic system.  I like your idea of the split black water/grey water system.  I assume you would need a smaller sized field.  I was trying to suggest a thin round concrete slab just large enough to put the drum over with a little lip on the outside with a 2-3 inch concrete wall formed around and a small 3-4 in. concrete top with rebar would take care of the collapse issue that others have raised and the floatation issue I was warned about.  Sort of like building your own smaller concrete enclosure and using the drum as the water tight tank inside. It wouldn't cost very much.  Off the top of my head probably $60.  It would require extra effort, but judging from what I've seen, you aren't one to shy away from hard work.

I will try to leave a more detailed messages going forward.  I apologize.

No need for an apology I am just ill mannered sometimes in what I say without even realizing it. I have been tossing around the idea of concrete reinforced top and sides. If nothing else I will do some sort of steel welded framework or something. You are right about the hard work aspect. I dont like to toot my own horn but I feel like people today dont work like people used to. Men used to be men. Strong and full of testosterone. Nowadays they are worried they might get a tear in their Abercrombie jeans. And how could a man use a shovel in flip flops. Im kinda like Merle Haggard... leather boots are still in style for manly footwear. I guess where I live, even a square can have a ball

[EaglesSJ]

I also wanted to add that my field is only 17 feet long and 4 feet wide 2.5 ft deep. I opted to make it a little shorter because the soil down here is ridiculously sandy and after pouring out 30 gallons in that trench last night and watching it dissipate in a matter of minutes I decided that a full 20 wasnt necessary. Not to mention we are only going to be putting about 20-25 gallons a day through this system at most. Thats quite a bit shy of the hundreds that go through a typical tank and drain field.

I will update a few months from now with the results of my labor. Next project is a water storage expansion from 330 gallons to 1000 gallons and then underpinning the house followed by doubling the solar equipment. Also we just found out that Lindsay my wife is pregnant so we will be adding a master bedroom onto the right side of the house. Plan on doing a 16x16 with a vaulted ceiling with exposed wood beams and lots of windows as well as a patio door opening up to a wrap around deck.

[diyfrank]

Ive looked into this septic system a little before and I'm interested to see how it works out for you.  A couple thoughts on the above concerns on plastic barrels. Concrete can float when empty so I think the same thing applies to the plastic, keep them full. The side pressure could be a problem but backfilling with gravel would lessen the side pressure. Your soil is free draining and that will help both the side pressure and floating concerns.  Another thought is timbers around the sides vertical such  as old rail road ties and a cross brace  would be strong, easy /cheap. I'm planning the same set up on my project.

[stricsm]

Congrats on the baby.  Can't wait to see your addition (the master suite and baby).

FWIW our septic is home-built albeit out of concrete poured in place.  It is small and we share it with the cabin next door.  It has been there for 10+ years.  I wish I could say I built it but it was one of the previous owners projects.  I've seen systems like yours before.  There are often used at hunting cabins and they will work.  If you run into trouble later, it is not like you can't fix it.  The best lessons in life are by doing and sometimes redoing.

Regards,

Mark

[EaglesSJ]

Here is kinda what we are looking at doing. Only difference is that room would be swapped sides. MSpaint error on my part.

[Sassy]

Congratulations on the pending new family member!

Your plans for the bedroom & deck look wonderful!  Will make your home truly an oasis 

[nathan.principe]

Congrats on the soon to be new addition! A new journey awaits you!  To answer your question about removing the lid, I assumed in the picture that the barrel he used in fact had a removable lid ( I guess the white rim threw me).  I installed the toielt flange with stainless bolts, nuts and washers, so you can imagine my need to remove the lid.  Im guessing now that the smarter thing would have been to drill small pilot holes and attach with stainless screws, is that what you did?  I guess as long as you dint over tighten there would be no issue with that?

[EaglesSJ]

I cut a hole in barrel then coated the back side of the flange with a thick bead of silicone. I stuck the flange over the hole and then used self tapping screws to tighten it to the barrel. I stripped 1 screw from over tightening so I just put another about 3/4" from it.

[EaglesSJ]

Also with a 4 inch flange if you wanted to you could probably wiggle your hand inside to hold a nut if thats what you wanted to use. Just be extra careful not to drop your tool inside.