Incinerator toilet or compost

[Yankeesouth]

Well I probably can predict the answer to this one  but like any hard up person I am hoping to hear  the unlikely answer of "go with incinerator."  So here it comes.  I need to put in a potty system, sand mound $12-20k septic not allowed only other "legal" options are the aforementioned in post topic.  If you have experiences good or bad with either of these systems please share.  Currently looking at Sun-mar Centrex 2000 or 3000 system.  Any good reason to go with burning poo other than simplicity of instillation and space?

[MountainDon]

The main thing I don't like about propane is the cost of the fuel.

SunMar's work but they work only if the composting chamber is kept warmer than 50-55 F. Lower than that the compost action ceases.

[rick91351]

Once upon a time a long long time ago 

Locomotives had Incinerating Toilets.  They are no longer allowed.  If I could only wordsmith the humor of it all.  The smell, the fumes, the windows wide open and heads hanging out when some new guy pushed the button.  We had a roundhouse foreman that actually was working with UPRR and the manufacture of the toilets to vent them via a traction motor blower located on the #1 or #2 traction motor under the front truck of the locomotive.  The short of it the Federal Railway Administration and a few other agencies decided that they better go in favor of a chemical toilet.  All us engine crews cheered with delight.  The short of it there is no way...... however in a house where they might be better maintained, venting and aromas might not be such a factor.  But I thumbs down on them every time I hear about them.         

[glenn kangiser]

Well, I think my wife's beans may be the answer....

They gave me enough gas today to fuel a couple of self incinerating toilets.....

....don't light a match....

[Erin]

Do they have to be commercial composting toilets?

I built a sawdust composting toilet for about $20 and spent another $20 or so on the buckets.  Works exactly as advertised.  And NO smell.   
The initial "EWWW!" factor is indeed something to consider, but you'll be surprised how fast you get over that.   

So far as the original question, I found extremely mixed reviews about most commercial composters, as well as incinerating toilets, which is why we went with simple, instead. 

[Yankeesouth]

Thanks for the replies.  I have been seeing mixed reviews about composters as well.  I thought about the homemade ones..... read a lot about the, but I I am just not real confident.

[Erin]

There's definitely a psychological hurdle to be overcome.  Or maybe that's just me because I'm a GIRL!  lol
But it's really no big deal anymore. 

I was backed into a corner.
We don't have a septic system yet, we can't afford to put one in for a while, and our outhouse is about 500 feet away from where we ended up parking our trailer house.  It was either make that trek anytime we needed to use the bathroom (my 11 year old boy I wasn't too worried about, but I knew my 8 year old daughter wouldn't be thrilled) or, go with a composting setup of some kind.

As mentioned, I wasn't impressed with the reviews I was seeing of commercial setups so I started looking into the Humanure sawdust type.  And really, I didn't see too many negatives of it.  I was really surprised, honestly.

So I figured we'd give it a try.  If nothing else, it could be a stand-by when DD woke up in the middle of the night needing the bathroom. 

The box was easy to build, though I prettied it up a bit.  (Beadboard around the base.  Brass hinges.  Oak seat and lid on the tank, which was converted to sawdust holder).  And buckets, of course. 
Our compost pile consists of two "pens" made from pallets.  One pen is the actual compost.  The other is the straw.  And the compost pile doesn't smell either.  I read somewhere that if your toilet or compost pile smells, you just need to throw more carbon (straw for the compost, sawdust for the bucket) on it and problem solved. 
Sure enough.  It's truly as simple as that.


Once you get over the fact that you're $%^&ing in a bucket, that is.   

[Squirl]

YankeeSouth, Are you in PA.?  I know a little about PA rules.  My understanding is that each county has a septic code officer.  It is the only form of code that is enforced for places built under the "camp" provisions.  I was told of many nightmares of people trying to get a composting toilet approved by septic code officers in PA.  Is my information correct?  If the code officer approved a composting toilet, can you let us know the county?  I think information of what counties/people that approve alternative building methods is very useful to many people and should be broadcast as much as possible.

Erin, I do know that sawdust toilets and outhouses are in no way legal by Pennsylvania rules.  I believe they are only permitted through a waiver from the code officer.  My understanding is these waivers are generally only given in Amish areas for religious exemptions, but even then, it is not common.

[hpinson]

Ditto to Erin. Just don't advertise it lest the health dept sh*t in your bucket.

[Erin]

Hence my question if a commercial version was required.   Some states have specifically addressed the topic.  Mine has not. 

Here's the info Envirolet has on their website:
http://manual.envirolet.info/a/envirolet-101/certifications/us-state-specific-regulations

Some more reading on the issue:  http://weblife.org/humanure/chapter8_9.html

In Pennsylvania, the state legislature has enacted legislation "encouraging the development of resources recovery as a means of managing solid waste, conserving resources, and supplying energy." Under such legislation the term "disposal" is defined as "the incineration, dumping, spilling, leaking, or placing of solid waste into or on the land or water in a manner that the solid waste or a constituent of the solid waste enters the environment, is emitted into the air or is discharged to the waters of the Commonwealth." 7 Further legislation has been enacted in Pennsylvania stating that "waste reduction and recycling are preferable to the processing or disposal of municipal waste," and further stating "pollution is the contamination of any air, water, land or other natural resources of this Commonwealth that will create or is likely to create a public nuisance or to render the air, water, land, or other natural resources harmful, detrimental or injurious to public health, safety or welfare. . ." 8 In view of the fact that the thermophilic composting of humanure involves recovering a resource, requires no disposal of waste, and creates no environmental pollution, it is unlikely that anyone who conscientiously engages in such an activity would be unduly bothered by anyone. Don't be surprised if most people find such an activity commendable, because, in fact, it is.

Ie, there's grounds to argue, if someone is willing to take it on. 

[Squirl]

Yes, there is an argument to be made and usually lost.  That is one of the reasons I went looking for land in NY instead of PA.  In NY approval is by any septic engineer certified in the state, so if you don't like the answer of one individual you can make your argument to another and  you can shop around.  My understanding in PA was there was only one person and if that person said no, there was no appeal ability. They were usually septic installers before or they are mostly familiar with septic installers in the county.  So they lean heavily towards traditional septic systems and the answer is No to everything else, unless there is absolutely no alternative.  Such as if there is a mound system possible composting was out.    Before I had found this forum I was at another that discussed building camps in PA.  I read of dozens of people testing this in rural counties with commercial composting toilets.  All were rejected.  This is a stubborn common complaint at the PA energy fest that I go to.  If there was approval I know about a dozen people that would like to know the location to point to as a reference. 

Also as stated in the envirolet manual for PA regulations, "Composting toilets are permitted under Ch. 73.65. Toilets must bear the seal of the NSF indicating testing and approval by that agency under Standard No. 41. "  So sawdust toilets are out.

Also the humanure website is either deliberately misleading or doesn't understand basic enviroment laws.  "Solid waste" and "Municiple Waste" is defined under almost every statute I have ever read as a more technical term for what is colloquially called garbage.

Erin, I hope you didn't get the impression that I was criticizing the post or the sawdust toilet method.  I was just trying to give the answer, to the best of my knowledge, to the question that the sawdust method was not allowed, hopefully saving Yankeesouth time researching it.   My apologies to YankeeSouth if you are not in PA.  I was just going off of the Pittsburgh craigslist posts you had made.

[archimedes]

Seems like an amazingly simple solution.  It's hard to imagine that it doesn't smell though.

But a wouldn't tell the gov't,  under any circumstances.  I'd keep a lid on it,  so to speak.

Yes, there is an argument to be made and usually lost.  That is one of the reasons I went looking for land in NY instead of PA.  In NY approval is by any septic engineer certified in the state, so if you don't like the answer of one individual you can make your argument to another and  you can shop around. 

Me too.  Very easy to build a "Camp" in PA much hard to get a septic approved.  Just the opposite in NY.

[Erin]

Also the humanure website is either deliberately misleading or doesn't understand basic enviroment laws.  "Solid waste" and "Municiple Waste" is defined under almost every statute I have ever read as a more technical term for what is colloquially called garbage.

Neither of the above.  I think he is just showing the fact that there is indeed room for argument. 
And the argument DOES need to be made.  I'm not sure I want to be one to take it on, though, either.  Fortunately I live in a state that doesn't inspect ANYTHING except the septic system.  When you put one in, that is.   
But there is a great deal of ignorance about this issue. 
I know.  A few months ago I found the idea absolutely appalling, was convinced it must be illegal, and at the very least, extremely unhygienic.

I've since learned otherwise. 

[considerations]

I recently upgraded in the cabin from an old and very tired enamel chamber pot to a commode (the oak seat, box with a bucket scenario).   I still have a port-a-john outside that I use for more "important" functions. 

I think I would do alright if an official wanted to know how I dealt with "waste". 

A composting toilet is my goal, and likely it will be a Sun Mar.  My thinking that for me, it is good to plan for the time when hauling water, fuel, waste, wood, etc. won't be as easy as it is now.

[Yankeesouth]

Squirl
I am in PA, South-western region.  The reason I am going compost is I read the PA regs "somewhere" that they are good to go.  Especially wit the green movement in our country.  Most folks that have cabins in my area have septic systems of sort that just suddenly appear overnight if you know what I mean.  I just know my luck.  Basically PA says composters are OK, if I would get questioned I would simply ask for documentation to state otherwise.  From what I have been able to research there is nothing in the county or township ordinance that should keep me from putting one of these suckers in.  I hope I am right.

[OlJarhead]

We have the Sunmar Centrex 2000 AC/DC and all in all I'm very happy. 

As Don mentions, however, they stop composting below about 55 degrees -- this can be a problem but only if you plan to live in the cabin.  Then I'd put the unit in a room with heat (basement perhaps).  Otherwise it acts like a holding tank during the winter which is ok provided you don't use the cabin more then a weekend or two a month.

In our case I'm up at the cabin about two weekends a month and have only had one issue:  freezing sewage pipe to compost bin.  We 'sorta' solved this with heat trace but then discovered that it can still freeze if it gets plugged and no one notices.  So, the heat trace was re-wrapped all the way down the pipe and put on the solar power to run 24hrs a day.  I'm hopeful now that it will be fine.

As for the holding capacity:  I'm not really sure how much use it can handle however we've not yet (crossing fingers) run into an issue.  Having said that I'll add that I filled the finishing drawer before the winter to ensure a little more room and this could have been done a LOT more (by dumping the drawer after 3 weeks and refilling etc) but I just didn't have the experience to know better -- so again, I'm crossing fingers and hoping the warmer weather appears soon!  It's colder this year though

In any case, there are options for keeping it warmer and we're planning on several this year (insulation, heater etc).

Erik

[jharleyhammond]

I'm with humanure. Been with it 2 years now and it works great at our cabin.