too many children rant

[MountainDon]

I have read that the hospital bill for the octuplets and Mom is estimated to be about $1.3 million. Why is it I don't think the money to pay that bill is coming from any health insurance company benefits?

smells like a bailout of sorts...

[Jens]

I wanna know how I apply for a bailout!  I just heard on Hannady (sp?), that the woman recieved something like $250,000 from the government.  Whether that was through multiple, over years type of assistance, or medical, or what, I don't know.  Made me cringe big time though.

[StinkerBell]

Her demands for cash to be interviewed, maybe her down fall. If she is on assistance and earns "x" amount of dollars during the month, I believe the state can garnish her money. Every state is a little different, but generally are the same.

[MountainDon]

Interesting point Stink... if she does get big buck interviews, book deals, etc. I believe she should have to reimburse the state, city, county for whatever gets paid out on her behalf.


In the UK it is illegal for a doctor to implant more than 2 embryo's at one time. Not that I am saying that a government knows best, but that simply does seem to make common sense. Multiple births of more than two children are rare when we don't tinker with nature. So that seems reasonable. 

[tanya]

It wasn't all that long ago the people who are calling for birth control would be considered blasphemous!!!!  Sinners!!! and the like!!!  I had my grandbaby over today and she is so cute, I would take a dozen more like her in a heartbeat. Even two dozen.  And even allt aht taxpayer craying wouldn't make me any less enthused.  The more the merrier isn't that what the bible says? 

[StinkerBell]

The bible says to be fruitful and multiply, but that is meant in the context of marriage.

[MountainDon]

Seems to me Genesis 1:28 was meant as a blessing to couples to marry and have children, not a command to go and have baby after baby. Some versions include the words "fill the earth", some have other words... It seems to me we have done a pretty good job of filling the earth and the earth would be even more full if folks weren't aborting babies or using various methods of conception/birth control.

Add to all those children growing into adults, where are the resources to support them?

[rwanders]

Someone needs to tell that woman it's just as much fun to just go through the motions.

[Ernest T. Bass]

Add to all those children growing into adults, where are the resources to support them?

Perhaps God sent us a genius to solve all those problems, and we aborted him. Heck, maybe he sent us millions..

[MountainDon]

Someone needs to tell that woman it's just as much fun to just go through the motions.

[glenn kangiser]

Once again I think that if people are trained or train themselves in many trades and skills needed for survival, they will be much more prepared to survive in any part of the world rather than just near cities and large population areas.  That would tend to make the world a much larger place.  Yesterday we went through a relatively nearby area with 50 miles between service stations.  The area would still be livable if people cared to live there.

Still... at least I know I have no need for that many kids. 

[Jens]

Seems to me Genesis 1:28 was meant as a blessing to couples to marry and have children, not a command to go and have baby after baby. Some versions include the words "fill the earth", some have other words... It seems to me we have done a pretty good job of filling the earth and the earth would be even more full if folks weren't aborting babies or using various methods of conception/birth control.

Add to all those children growing into adults, where are the resources to support them?

The bible says to be fruitful and multiply, but that is meant in the context of marriage.

The three versions of the Bible that I have in my house don't say anything about marriage in Gen 1:28.  In fact, that passage is before the garden of Eden, and thus, Adam and Eve are even created.  To the best of my knowledge, marriage talk doesn't even come up (except for just saying they were married, concerning Noah and later) until after the Exodus. 

I agree Don, it does seem we have done a good job, but the only reason we have filled the Earth so much, is that we continue to play God by keeping people alive when it is there time to die, and in the case of this situation helping people have more than they naturally would.  I wonder sometimes, if all of the diseases we have now, are God's way of trying to say "Pharaoh!  Let my people go!"  It would give curious notion to not being able to find cures for the most vile of sicknesses now being suffered by so many.

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yeah, in times gone by population was controlled by an occasional plague that wiped out a bunch of people quickly... Nowadays everyone's sick, but in a chronic, lingering kind of way.

[MountainDon]

On marriage and multiplying... I believe it is best that people who want children be married, but more importantly it is not fair to children to not have 2 parents. It is also not fair to intentionally set out to have large families when the parent is single and doesn't have a clue as to where the financial support for raing all those kids comes from.

As for "playing God by keeping people alive"; it depends on where that line is being drawn and by whom. I personally do not see any point in being 90 years old, on oxygen, a feeding tube, a colostomy bag, etc. However, I am glad that we are able to detect precancerous conditions in the colon and do something about it with relatively little discomfort and cost, adding years to an active person's life. So if that is playong god, so be it.

As for plagues... isn't it a good thing we don't have to worry about things like bubonic plague, poliomyelitis or diphtheria to pick just three?

Maybe it's just me.   

[Ernest T. Bass]

Most plagues would probably never have gotten out of hand if people knew about sanitation.. And while they sound horrible, fighting cancer for decades and finally dying an excruciating death of bone cancer is pretty bad too..

[MountainDon]

fighting cancer for decades and finally dying an excruciating death of bone cancer is pretty bad too..

But what's the alternative?


I have a friend who has had an on and off again fight with colon cancer for over ten years. He's a fighter and has stated that on the whole it's been worth it. Worth it for seeing grand kids and for being able to still enjoy travel and exploration in the boonies. I am not sure I would have the same attitude. Actually I'm playing a wait and see game on the same thing. I have a yearly colonoscopy which always entails the removal of multiple polyps, multiple biopsies and so far multiple good news.

I'm not certain how I will react if/when the day comes that the doctor says, Uh-oh. That Uh-oh can go two ways... a removal of the entire colon right off because there are now cancerous cells, or the longer, slower chemo battle. What's better? To have to make choices or to have thins the "old way" where there were no choices, there was no early detection. Then, when cancer was found you ordered your coffin. Now you can make a choice.

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well, cancer is a whole different topic altogether... Personally, we don't feel that the medical industry does anything but prolong cancer. And why wouldn't they? It's a mega mega billion dollar business. Do you honestly think if an inexpensive permanent cure for cancer was discovered today, that the pharmaceutical companies would promote it, or even let it exist?

I have never heard of someone getting diagnosed with cancer at a young age, receiving conventional treatment and then living a happy healthy life to a ripe old age. It ALWAYS comes back in a matter of years, sometimes less. All the treatment does is drive it deeper into the body. First it'll be skin cancer, then colon, etc. However, the treatment for the skin cancer goes down as a success in the record books, even if the cancer resurfaces somewhere else in the body and kills the person a year later.

I think the only way to prevent cancer is to treat yourself like you have it, and live as natural and healthy as possible.

Most everyone will probably disagree, but that's my take on it.

[r8ingbull]

I was diagnosed with cancer (osteosarcoma) at 14 years old.  I'll be turning 28 in March.  Chemotherapy and surgery saved my life.  I have had no recurrence in over 12 years.

My ex's mother had breast cancer at 28 years old, she is living a happy healthy life, and I know of no problems for her (she is 56 now).

I'm sure our 6 year old daughter would disagree that cancer treatments don't work. 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'll take back what I said... However, I have known many many cancer victims and you are the first that I know of to make a seemingly full recovery. I hope you continue to be blessed with a healthy long life!

[r8ingbull]

I understand where you're coming from though.  I know lots of people that seem to fight cancer for years and never get better.  I had an employee fight brain cancer 4 times in 10 years, she had to work through it or the insurance company would drop her.  Got so bad near the end she came in and I just had her sleep in the backroom, instead of working...

[glenn kangiser]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/4569991/Parents-find-cure-for-sons-untreatable-blood-disorder.html

Speaks of possible cancer cure also.

Also - prostate cancer was starting to return on my dad - My sister put him on Essiac tea a few years ago and no more problems.

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Cancer is a whole other topic... back to where we were with the too many kids rant....
My opinions, in case anyone wants them, and even if you don't:
1. Fertility treatment seems ridiculous and irresponsible for a single woman with six kids already.  I don't like those kind of fertility treatments because they depend on embryos created outside of the human body, many of which will not be used, and will therefore be killed.
2.  Abortion is also wrong.  It is not because we are simply destroying any life that it is wrong.  After all, if you kill germs on your kitchen counter, no one would hold it against you.  It is because you it is killing a soul, a being created in the very image of God.  It is not the woman's own soul she is killing (though it most likely ends up maimed, too) when she aborts. 
3.  I think the gal is seriously messed up... but not because she wants a big family.  I want a big family too, and would be thrilled if we had more kids.  However, it is unfair to these kids that they are born into a family without both a mother and a father.  For the mom's sake as well as for the kids' sake, I hope that someday some really brave guy will step up to the plate and help her raise her brood, but she's gone about it all the wrong way, and pretty much any fellow would be scared off by a single mom with fourteen kids, and reasonably so.  There is something that my husband has with our kids that I can't imitate or replace...and likewise, there are the things that I can do for/with the kids that DH cannot.  Every kid needs a mom AND a dad... 
4.  I confess.  When I heard about the octuplets, my first thought was, "Wow!  That's amazing!  What a design that the human body can adapt to situations, and survive them, and sometimes even thrive in spite of them!"  That is nothing that we did ourselves, of course, but still completely amazing, even if I think this woman is irresponsible and perhaps a bit "touched in the head", as my grandma used to say. 

[Jens]

It sounds to me, at times, as if people are quite positive that just because kids grow up with only  one parent they are doomed.  My wife and I are just two of the many kids I know from "broken" houses that grew up quite well adjusted, thank you very much.  It is also a grand fallacy, IMO, that society has to say that marriage before birth either does more good with regard to a child's mental/emotional/physical health than the alternative.  The important part is that the two parents (or even just the one) are both loving and compassionate.  In fact, I have seen more people turn into maladjusted individuals after growing up in a "normal" house, than most single parented children I have ever met. 

It deeply pains me, that so often the situation of relationship between the parents is held in higher importance than the relationship between parent and child.  A piece of paper does nothing to bind people in this world.  If people are "married", everyone automatically assumes that 1. they love each other, and 2. it will be a better environment to raise a child in.  With all due respect to everyone here who thinks contrary, that attitude is absolutely abhorrent to me.  It is despicable, and the plank should be pulled from your eyes first.  God's sanctity of marriage has nothing whatsoever to do with what society has made it, in fact it never has.  Just as life begins at conception, so does true marriage begin when two commit their hearts to each other.  Sometimes that is upon first meeting, sometimes it never happens, yet if people get "married" some how they are doing "the right thing" or following "the right order".  If in no other way you can accept this, simply look at the rate of divorce, and single parents.

Yes there are some things that a mother can't replace from a father, nor a father for mother, yet grace is extended to us all and it is up to us to use it or not. 

I don't agree with the whole embrionic implanting thing, and pray for blessings to the children, but who are we to pass judgement on another whom we don't even know?  She may be the best parent in the world.  None of us are so whole as to even be discussing her "good" or "bad" points or decisions.

To this struggling woman, her children, and all of you,
May the Lord God, Creator of all, have mercy on our poor broken hearts.  Only he can mend them, and fill them.  May the Father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob bless you and keep you, make his face shine upon you, may he raise his countenance to you and grant you peace.

Shalom

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

Jens,
  I'm not trying to put down single parents or kids of single parents, by any means.  I am a child of a single mom.  I am just saying that things work a lot better when there are two parents, and it's one thing if someone ends up parenting a child as a single parent, and an entirely different matter if she is intentionally going out and implanting embryos, MULTIPLE embryos even, with no real plan on how or what she's going to do after they are born.  Disagreeing with her choice shouldn't be imputed as judgement... only God is her judge.  I'm just saying it is going to be very hard for her to take care of and support all those kids herself.

[glenn kangiser]

I can't see her controlling and successfully raising that many kids and look for them to become some of the states and communities problems of the future.  She is already messed up.  What leadership or example do they have?