60 minute paper

[diyfrank]

Whats your thoughts on this stuff.

The guy that does a lot of the siding on our jobs uses 60 minute paper.
He works for a large siding company that does a large piece of the work in the area.  He claims from many years siding in the wet Washington state, you should not use 30 lb felt at all.  Use 15 lb on the roof and 60 minute on the walls. It breaths and keeps water out. Make sure you put it on right and caulk.

He also says not to put felt on until you side. The UV will break it down even over the winter months.
He suggests using 6 mil plastic and battens for temporary if you are going to let it sit over the winter, or plan on re-papering it before you side.

[MountainDon]

Roofs are done with #30 felt, not #15. At least everything I've seen on the subject says that. And #15 is preferred for walls as #30 is simply too hard to handle for vertical installs.

It seems 60 minute paper is just another product; can't say what's best....


http://www.halind.com/content/products/BU0500.html

http://www.fortifiber.com/fortifacts_60_minute.html

http://www.nibs.org/BETEC/04Membranes/Pres/Olson.pdf

[diyfrank]

I'll have to read though those link and see what they claim.

What he was telling me is after years of fixing mold problems, He believes 30 LB is too heavy for roofs and 15 lb is too heavy for walls.  water gets in the walls and ceiling from other places like cooking food and running showers.  less is best, more breathing.
In dryer places mold may not be much of a problem.

I'll do some more research and see what I can find.

[glenn kangiser]

Felt actually turns into a wick to remove water if wet for a while then goes back to normal after it dries.  It shouldn't contribute to the problem unless something has been done improperly.

[Yonderosa]

We've been using the 60 minute paper for a few years now.  Easier to handle = better installation.  Most siders I know prefer it.

I've always used 15# felt on comp roofs 4/12 and steeper.  I've only used 30# under wood roofs.

FWIW: In 22 years working in the building trade I've never (knock on wood) had a failure using felt, even when the siding or roofing had damage.  I have come across issues with Tyvek and Barricade, both trapped water against the sheathing that then rotted.  They work fine until there is damage or a leak (damaged chase flashing, caulking failure, frozen pipes...) - then the moisture is trapped and may go undetected for years.  Rot is usually widespread by then. 

[PEG688]

 So 60 minute paper is some new buzz word for house wraps like Tyvex , Typar etc etc?

We've beat this dead , or not so dead horse,  for a few years here.

Bottom line 15 felt is the best bet IF installed properly , as in ALWAYS lead the water out , make sure you provide a positive drainage plane to day light. ALWAYS , with any wrap , lead the water out.

That being said today professional crews will seldom be seen using felt , it's to slow to install (read $$$$) although it's cheap to buy it's slow to install , and you can't wrap the whole house in advance as it will pucker up if left uncovered , some times over night which raises hell with snapping lines , getting siding to lay down flat , especially Hardi siding.

   
Personally I like  #1:Typar ,  #2: Tyvek ( very bright hard on the eyes on sunny days) ,  #3: then felt , ALL the other "off" brands , lumber yard logo house wraps are total crap and in fact are worst than NOT using any wrap or felt.


I've got over 30 years on two coast working with these products , I've remodeled hundreds of house, I've found rot with ALL types of wrap , BUT felt due to a few circumstance's has had the best over all record , when installed properly.

The circumstance's are / where older house tend not to be insulated as well so they are drafty and they literally dry out better WHEN they get wet, they also tend to be build with old , better lumber. The crap we get today for building lumber would have never been milled for that 20 or 30 years ago , it would have been fire wood , or left to rot as it had , or would of had in that time , NO stump value.

So my recommendation for one time builders is use felt , make sure you lap it so the water is always draining the water on to the layer below it , OR OUT TO DAY LIGHT.

If you do that your building will outlast you , at least from a rot stand point, that is due to exterior water leaking in. 


  Mainly in a house we keep the water in the pipes where it belongs.

Vent attics  , crawl spaces,  kitchens and bathroom  properly and inside moisture will take care of itself.


These are general rules / guidelines , YMMV , Void where prohibitted, Use no hooks , as always IT DEPENDS , on local use , area conditions , YADDA YADDA YADDA. 


Yondo who do you work for or what is your company name  in Anacortes? PM  me if you'd like, I work over in Anacortes these days.   



  A UMass study , FWIW from the college boys perspective,  they got this report about right IMO. 

  http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/housewraps_feltpaper_weather_penetration_barriers.html

 

[diyfrank]

Peg
60 minute paper was the "new buzz word" in 1980. lol

It is similar to felt but made from Kraft paper, it resist water longer.
The tests done on felt and house wrap in your link showed felt and typar brand beating
other brand house wraps by holding water for 30 minute before it pasted through.
No tests were done on the 60 minute paper, but 60 minutes is twice as long as 30???

I'm not sure of the cost different between 60 minute and 15 # felt, I haven't check in to it yet.
It seems from what I've read so far is, felt soaks and wicks moisture away.
60 minute prevent water to penetrate for 60 minute and than hits the second layer, keeping moister from coming in contact with the sheating.

Everyone seems to agree, do a good job and any type of wrap, paper, felt will do its job.

I did do a search on here and came up empty. No threads have discussed this product.

[firefox]

Thanks Peg,
       That was a great article from UMass.
Bruce

[PEG688]

#1: 60 minute paper was the "new buzz word" in 1980. lol

  #2: It is similar to felt but made from Kraft paper, it resist water longer.
The tests done on felt and house wrap in your link showed felt and typar brand beating
other brand house wraps by holding water for 30 minute before it pasted through.
No tests were done on the 60 minute paper, but 60 minutes is twice as long as 30???



  #3: Everyone seems to agree, do a good job and any type of wrap, paper, felt will do its job.

  #4: I did do a search on here and came up empty. No threads have discussed this product.

   #1: It must be a well kept secret then I have never heard or seen that "60 minute paper" reference any where that I recall.

   #2:  Do tell ??

  #3: I disagree with that statement , and I said so in my first post , I'd say use nothing as use the cheap / non- name brands of building wrap , they do not breath at all , I've seen some really bad damage  behind the Non- brand name wraps.   Maybe it was installed wrong BUT  I can't say that , I just know it breeds water once wet. Bad stuff , IMO.

#4: We've bashed / (talked about)  the wraps around but never this 60 minute stuff.  Again,  that I recall. 


 

[diyfrank]

Pegg
Here is a link from dons post above
http://www.fortifiber.com/fortifacts_60_minute.html



Here is a FAQ from the links don posted above
http://www.halind.com/content/building_paper_faq.html

#3 I stand corrected, you did say you believe using nothing is better than cheap house wrap in the above post.

I haven't read anything from any of the above links or posts that classifies 60 minute as cheap house wrap.

I asked for thought on this product, but it doesn't look as though members here have any experience with it, with the  exception of Yonderosa.

[glenn kangiser]

I haven't used it but have seen the reports of the Tyvek type wrap problems and heard of a complete apartment complex that failed and was torn down in Oregon - due to a failed Tyvek type wrap.

[PEG688]

I asked for thought on this product, but it doesn't look as though members here have any experience with it, with the  exception of Yonderosa.

Thats true I've never used the 60 minute product. And haven't found much on google about it. I'll ask around this week and see if anyone else has heard of it.

 
Glenn what else may have lead to that failure? Was it totally failed wrap  or installation errors, moisture not vented properly??

Sorry Frank  , should we take this else where ,,,,,,,,  this some what related thread drift??

[glenn kangiser]

I didn't get the details on that failure, PEG.  My cousin has a concrete pumping business on the coast near Lincoln City and told me about it.  My point is that felt is not as critical and will rescue some mistakes where if the Tyvek type product has a problem it is sometimes a disaster.

[diyfrank]

[/quote]


 
Glenn what else may have lead to that failure? Was it totally failed wrap  or installation errors, moisture not vented properly??

Sorry Frank  , should we take this else where ,,,,,,,,  this some what related thread drift??
[/quote]

I don't think it need taken else where.    It is some what relate.   I'd like to hear about failure and the root cause for sure.

[Don_P]

Tyvek did have failures from extractives bleeding from some woods eating the tyvek. Western Redcedar was the example I saw written up in one of the builder magazines. I think they have resolved that.

I was raised the same way, 15 pound under asphalt shingles so that they stay flat, 30 under shakes. I think modern "number 30" felt is not far from Dad's "15 pound" felt. I've not used 60 minute paper. UV's do breakdown feltpaper pretty quickly.

Tarpaper is pretty neat stuff. The buckling someone mentioned above is due to the nature of the material. It is a wood based product that shrinks and swells in response to moisture, that is also part of what makes it work.

Cellulose, paper pulp, is no different than the wood it came from. The fibers swell when wetted and shrink when dried. Aside, cotten is pure cellulose, no lignin or other wood byproducts. Either those 6 chocolate valentines cookies hit home or these jeans got mighty dry this time. Anyway, tarpaper first thing in the morning dew is bubbled. In the heat of the day it draws up so tight it often wants to rip out of its fasteners, I lap line on line to give more fastener room. Its no different than wood swelling when wetted or drying and shrinking.

Now coat the fibers with a bit of tar. When they adsorb moisture, get damp and swell, the tar impregnated fibers slam tightly together repelling the passage of water. As they dry the fibers are drawn further apart making the felt more vapor permeable. Grandpa was more hi tech than we give him credit for.

[glenn kangiser]

Also Tyvek type papers are destroyed by surfactants such as soap - pressure washing is an example, and dirt can also cause the chemicals in it to quit working and make it into a wet towel. 

The oils in rot resistant woods can also destroy the Tyvek.  As PEG mentioned - leading water the wrong way can lead to a bucket of water staying in the wall cavity.  Tyvek and others permit exit of vapor - not exit of water.  The grandpa's high tech felt Don_P mentioned will wick or wrinkle and drain the water out in a short time after it gets there.  Good practices are still a must.

The #30 (number 30) is not the same as the 30# (30 pound) felt of the past and the #15 is also thinner than 15# - I think it got reduced in thickness as oil prices went up.  It was a trick, just like when they reduced the sizes of my boxes of ice cream to 1.75 quarts.  A bit of a ripoff for the same amount of money. ...

[PEG688]

The #30 (number 30) is not the same as the 30# (30 pound) felt of the past and the #15 is also thinner than 15# - I think it got reduced in thickness as oil prices went up.  It was a trick, just like when they reduced the sizes of my boxes of ice cream to 1.75 quarts.  A bit of a ripoff for the same amount of money. ...

Ya just gotta love thread drift we start out with a building product few have heard of and also used , and end up in the ice cream isle at the local grocery store 

  Thats one , of many reasons , I keep coming back here!

We could add to this drift by talking about why people insist on using these wraps ( speed  / installation  cost  is / may be  the main factor ? I mean why did some one Dupont / who ever makes Typar decide we needed a "better" way to wrap a house?

I guess a combination of things , tighter houses make "sicker" insides and all these "new " fangled products have glue , and other "crap" to stick them together so we have to get the "crap" out of the building some how , via venting , or natural exhausting thru the walls , and the "new " wraps as suppose  to let stuff out , but not let water in?? Ya right that will be easy

  Anyway did anyone dig up a better article on the 60 minute stuff?? Pass the cookies  and ice cream ,  I recommend  using  low heat on the dryer on those jeans 

 

[glenn kangiser]

All that added stuff in those house wraps is like all the unnatural ingredients they put in my ice cream.... propylene glycol...polysorbate 80. 

Think you can get this back on track, PEG? hmm

[desimulacra]

quote"Building Paper is a Kraft paper sheet impregnated with asphalt to increase its strength and resistance to water penetration. It is primarily employed as a drainage layer. It is graded according to a test of the amount of time required for a water-sensitive chemical to change color when a boat-shaped sample is floated on water. Common grades include 10, 20, 30, and 60 minutes. The larger the number, the more resistant the paper is to water."
Soo between the above and the article posted previously  60 minute being the new "Benchmark" this stuff will resist water for 60 minutes, and that's good.? I guess I don't know the test but seems to be that the Tar paper I've used is resistant for longer than 60 minutes?? I rally dunno but >Kraft Paper< doesn't "sound" impressive.