Advice on excavating problem

[rsbhunter]

Hopefully im in the right part of the forum.Ok, short version, i met with 3 guys that do backhoe work about digging out stumps and levelling some of my future cabin area. Prices ran from $800.00 to $2000.00....with out permits.....$400.00 for permits...which if NOT obtained, can result in double the cost ($800.00) After talking with all three, i went with the lowest, as i had seen his work, and he does good work. After i sent him payment for work and permits, the guy who quoted $2000.00 calls and says" i got the work on your land finished"!!! I called him, and informed him that i had NOT authorized nor told him that he had the job....he said, i was up there doing some other work, and thought you would want it done! And WITHOUT permits!!!! Which puts me on the hook for possibly $800.00 in permits, as it is the landowners responsibilty. This guy did state later in the conversation that "i might have jumped the gun"...But then accused me of going to try to "lowball" him.....I'm considering paying him the $1200.00, which is $2000.00 less the possible $800.00 i could be hit for permits....I don't want to not pay him something, but i'm pizzed that he took it upon himself that he could do the work....Plus , as this land is about 350 miles from my present location....i don't know that something might be done as "payback.....Any thoughts or advice, suggestions? Thanks for any help...rsbhunter

[cbc58]

Maybe you can ask him to put the property back into the condition he found it... and call the police.   Get a police report if needed.   

[Tinga]

We've had issues with a similar situation, only it involved a motor.

DO NOT PAY HIM! At all. IMO there are people that are like this that WILL do unasked for work, guilt you into paying them
i.e It needed to be done, I was already working on it..  They act like they are doing YOU a favor, but in all reality, they aren't. NOBODY does work for free and unasked for. NOBODY.

If you didn't authorize it, don't pay him. That lets you open to TONS of liability. Lets say he comes back and says, BTW.. so and so broke /lost/missed something while doing your job... he's gonna come after YOU
Let him try and recoup his money elsewhere, but bring proof that you DIDN'T authorize it. As for the guy that did get the work. Write up a bid contract ( if you don't already have one) even if he didn't get to do the work.

[hpinson]

This is a very bad situation for him to have put you in. Document, document, document!

[offthegridcortland]

Let me start by saying that it is very easy for me to give an opinion from the comfort of my home.  I know you are the one in the position and you have to do what you think is right.  Having said that, as a former NYC cop, I can tell you that this is a scam tactic and you are the victim of a scam.  That is not to say that the work wasn't done or even done well, but it was not agreed upon and probably explains why he came in with a much higher bid in the first place.  It's a set up.  I can also tell you that documentation, especially first documentation always trumps non-documentation.  I would not pay him, because that implies that you two had agreed upon the work in the first place, opening you up to future liability as well as the possibility that he comes after you for more money.  I would also immediately report him to the BBB, the local police, and the local building department.  Remember that you are the victim.

[CjAl]

do not pay him, he has no signed contract from you to do the work. furthermore i would file a tresspass claim against him to cover your own rear end on the permit front. if you pay him anything it is admitting you authorized the work. i had a paving co for a few years and i never steped foot on someones property without a signed contract.

beyond that thank him for the free work and hang up on him

[rsbhunter]

You're all right...i do feel guilty, and i have no reason to....i knew when he quoted me the price, that i wasn't going to go with him...To be honest, i didn't have the amount he wanted, and the $400.00 for permits....and i'm no BoyScout, but i really do like to do things on the up and up, at least as far as permits and such....I had thought about the same thing, that, if i pay him, it would constitute an admission of there being an agreement......Now, as far as documentation, what can i document? I have saved the message on my cell and answering machine telling me he had done it, but when i called him, there was no recording or anything.(i have since bought a digital recorder and phone hook up). But other than nothing to show,  i have no documentation. I have thought of calling him and asking for a contract (which he won't do) for $1200.00 his price minus the liability of the $800.00 in permits, and then state that i need his buisness lic. and all so that i can claim it on my FEDERAL taxes.....will probably be the end of it right there, as i think he does this under the table......But Thanks for all the replies, keep the ideas coming please, it really reaffirms that i'm not the bad guy here.....he WAS up there anyway, so he probably figures he'll do it,make me feel obligated to pay him, and pocket $2000.00 ....Thanks again, rsbhunter

[cbc58]

According to your original post -- you can document that you sent someone else payment for the work and permits...

[Tinga]

^^^ This. You already paid someone to do the work and for the permits. This will be the documentation that you need, if need be , if you think this guy will retaliate, take pictures of the work done and MAYBE get the guy you DID hire to check the work and put up no trespassing signs for you.

As far as him contacting you.. You told him you didn't want his business and if he calls asking about money for the job...well tell him to go through legal means and file for small claims.

[rsbhunter]

Ok, i see...I do have the stubs of the bank M.O.'s,and the reciept of the certified, return reciept(for sending the M.O.'s) from the Post office sent at 12:53 in the afternoon, and this guy called at 6:53 that evening to tell me he had done the work...so , THANK YOU, i DO have some documentation...and i will keep it , scanned into my puter and in paper form.....rsbhunter

[rsbhunter]

What is the thought on my contacting a lawyer in that state and asking for a legal aspect?

[Don_P]

A lawyer is never a bad idea.

As far as setting a price, there had been offer and acceptance of $800. Go turn yourself in at the building dept, explain what happened and get the permit. If the gentleman calls back explain what has happened, that the job had already been agreed to for $800 and that fee has been consumed at the building department with an explanation to them explaining what had happened. You will also be needing his liability insurance information.

[Squirl]

I would get a lawyer first.

Second, and this is just what I would personally do and not legal advice, I would sue for trespass, destruction of property, tortuous interference with your contract with the other contractor, and anything else I could think of.  Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.  I would probably even put in a complaint with the local law enforcement.  Establishing off the bat that this was not done with permission and was trespass might block any liability when it comes to permits.

[rsbhunter]

Ok, just so it might be of help in the future...talked with a lawyer in Colorado (free)....He said, the best course of action is to send a certified letter stating that i am willing to pay this guy, what i was going to pay the other guy....as , even in court, small claims or other, i wouldn't end up getting" something for nothing"some latin term he quoted...and it makes sense.....he did say to send the letter, and to have him , in return, send a letter stating that he is to accept the payment as paid in full for any and all work done to date, AFTER i inspect the work. I also asked him to supply his tax I.D. # so that i can claim the payment on my federal tax return......don't even know if i can, but it might help with persueding him to accept the offer.....i'll post again when i hear anything....hunter

[muldoon]

My advice is worth exactly what you payed for it, ie nothing. 

However, the notion that you owe this guy anything blows my mind.  There was no contract for work, you were getting bids and he ran away and did "something" and now wants to collect.  Let him take you to court, show your evidence, ask the court how that would work for county job bidding process if a road section or bridge came up to bid and one of the contractors just starting doing work before being awarded a contract and expected payment. 

You have documentation proving you were paying someone else for the work, no way this will stand. 

For what it's worth, I think it was a scam from the start and never good intentions gone wrong.  He knew you were not around and once he got in there you would have little recourse but to "settle up" with him in the end.  I would take this as a personal affront and make damn sure he did not profit a dime off this fraud if it was me. 

I will never understand why we as a nation tolerate this idea that it is perfectly acceptable to have a permanent population of grifters, that for some reason it is expected and agreeable to live in and participate in this one nation under fraud mentality. 

** editing to add
Once lawyers are involved, it is my humble opinion that only the lawyers will in any benefit. 

[UK4X4]

 Can you send me his contact details ?

my local contracter wants 13,000usd for a hole and back fill !

[rsbhunter]

Muldoon, i agree 100% with you....it all started when the saying "Billy isn't wrong, he interpets it differently"     There is no black and white, no right and wrong. Bill Clinton screwed that up when in court, sworn in and on the stand he said"it depends on what your definition of sex is"....everything is touchy , feely now....Can't make murderers work in the hot sun, inhumane...(like cutting up there victim wasn't)...can't call somebody that enters the country "illegal" because, there again, there here for a noble reason...... When we reach the point where society breaks down, which is close, then reality might resurface....as far as my deal, i'll pay him, get it over with, and move on, another life lesson....rsbhunter

[Squirl]

Um....

I think the lawyer may have told you about of quantum meruit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_meruit
The cases are usually brought as a quasi-contractual unjust enrichment claim.  If you ever take up study of the law (or you can just click through the cases cited) you will see that quantum meruit dates back to English common law before the United States became a country.  The American legal system is based on a combination of common law (English case law because we were and English colony) and code law (based on the Roman system).  This has been a general interpretation applied to similar situations for hundreds of years.  This has nothing to do with any of the "touchy feely" attitudes or Bill Clinton getting a piece on the side.

One of the critical aspects of it is if you got "something" without paying for it, and the value of that.  Many of these claims can be offset by any damages you received.  (trespass, tortuous interference, destruction of property, etc.)

This is for discussion purposes only. Again this is not legal advice and does not establish any attorney-client relationship.

As much as I like litigation, in a small rural area, everyone knows everyone else.  I would be an outsider and my opponent may be related to the judge.  "A good lawyer knows the law, a great lawyer knows the judge."

[muldoon]

Squirl,

I think the legal framework you are referring to does show up quite a bit in contractor disputes. Especially in the case where a homeowner hires a contractor to perform a job, for example painting a house.  Said contractor does 80% of the work but never comes back leaving the homeowner to either finish himself or hire someone else to finish.  The first contractor then sues for payment and when in front of the judge says I did 80% of the work I want 80% of my quote.  In many cases, he gets it too. 

I do not think this is the same thing here although it is likely equally sleazy. 

You are correct about the unseen cost of making waves in a rural community as the outsider.  Be it the judge, the local cops, or the local hooligans, odds are good he knows folks in the town and will convey his side of the story making you look the bad guy.  Walking away from this as a lesson learned may be the best approach, but then again it just reinforces the "it's ok to cheat because everyone does it" mentality.  You will find this mentality in every country on the planet, and in general the poorer the country the more prevalent corruption, bribery and general cheating of each other is "tolerated" as just normal day to day activities expected. 

[Squirl]

The legal concept is the same basis.  When there is no contract it become a quasi-contractual unjust enrichment claim.  As you can read from the  NY state definition in the beginning (and most states are very similar across the country).
(1) defendant was enriched; (2) the enrichment was at plaintiff's expense; and (3) the circumstances were such that equity and good conscience require defendants to make restitution.

No mention of there being a contract.   

The wiki article of unjust enrichment is even broader, so I didn't find it as good of a reference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unjust_enrichment

On broad strokes, both are generally the same concept and pled the same in most complaints, but there are small statutory and common law differences between jurisdictions.  The purpose is did someone get something for nothing.

There seems to be plenty of red meat of this bone to litigate, and I am a fighter by nature.  I would normally have no problem saying I'll see you in court, except:
1. I am not familiar in any way with the exact case law and state laws of Colorado;
2. As I mention, not knowing the players involved.

An insight into the individual might be to check the local court dockets, although not likely online in a rural area, to see if this person has been sued before or if they have a criminal background.

[alex trent]

Do not pay him. Let him be the one to initiate action...if he will and doubt it. Stand up fro your rights and do not be so afraid of the locals. If he wronged you he has them too.  If you are that afraid of them...bad place to be settling in

More important..stop listening to the jailhouse lawyers quoting advice based on law found on Wiki. My goodness guys, stick to something close to what you know when you speak.

[Squirl]

As you can see the normal black and white claim on what the lawyer told you might be interpreted as "Did you get something?  Yes. And did you pay for it? No. "

The "it depends on what the meaning of the word is is" moments come in when if a person says:
What is something?  What is it worth?  Would the other contractor at $800 have done a better job.  Did the job meet your expectations?  Do you need to hire someone else to fix his work?  Did he get some type of benefit? Sold the stumps?  Do you have to pay him the value you received or just his expenses?  Does that include his time?  Did he violate your right to use of your land by trespassing? Did he damage your reputation because you have to renege on the contract with the other contractor?  Did he intentionally damage your dealings and business relationship with another contractor?  Do you have to pay more to the county?  Did he damage your reputation with code enforcement officers?  And the list goes on....


Alex, we are not being jailhouse lawyers.  We are not giving legal advice at all.  This is just a discussion of general legal concepts and nothing specific to the application of the laws of the state of Colorado.  The only licensed practicing lawyer in the state of Colorado that gave actual legal advice for the application of the laws of the State of Colorado with these specific facts told him to do the exact opposite of your advice.  I personally wouldn't pay him either, but I would also not tell rsbhunter to go against the advice of his lawyer.

[alex trent]

Squirl

As the Bard put it "much ado about nothing"

Have at it.

[muldoon]

As you can see the normal black and white claim on what the lawyer told you might be interpreted as "Did you get something?  Yes. And did you pay for it? No. "

Can you please send me the address of where I should send my invoice to?  I provided advice above (you got something), and I have not been compensated (you did not pay for it).  Even though we had no agreement of terms or negotiated contract in writing or verbally, I still think you should pay up.  Again, what's that address? 

//should be obvious this is a sarcastic analogy. 

As the Bard put it "much ado about nothing"  Have at it.

I'm not saying I disagree with the sentiment, but it's not uncommon for folks to say plenty without actually talking about anything. 

[Squirl]

Can you please send me the address of where I should send my invoice to?  I provided advice above (you got something), and I have not been compensated (you did not pay for it).  Even though we had no agreement of terms or negotiated contract in writing or verbally, I still think you should pay up.
//should be obvious this is a sarcastic analogy. 

I particularly enjoy these as exercises of the mind, especially in areas I haven't worked in a while.  One of the keys is that unjust enrichment claims or quatum meruit can be applied to quasi-contractual cases.
"Because a quasi contract is not a true contract, mutual assent is not necessary [emphasis added], and a court may impose an obligation without regard to the intent of the parties. The remedy is typically restitution or recovery under a theory of quantum meruit. Liability is determined on a case-by-case basis."
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/quasi_contract_or_quasi-contract

I would normally pay up, but

My advice is worth exactly what you payed for it, ie nothing. 

What is something?  It depends on what the meaning of the word is is.