Pros VS. Owner/Builders

flyingvan · December 19, 2013, 09:44:45 AM

There was a recent derisive discussion here that got me pondering things a bit. The basic conflict, I think, was a professional in a trade made issue with the owner/builder's ability to perform his trade safely and effectively.
First, I'm glad there are professionals out there---an important part of the owner/builder experience is finding your limitations. I know I have to buy my powertools, I can't build them myself. I know I have to look up span tables some other Smarticus developed; I'm borrowing info from the pros.
There is no feeling quite like successfully completing an owner/builder project. There is a series of hurdles to overcome, and every discipline requires research and a well thought out approach so as to end up with a safe, efficient structure you can be proud of.
I can understand why some tradesmen are threatened by owner/builders. Many people attach a big part of their self worth to their career, and for a hobbyist to complete a project in that trade somehow takes something away from them.
There's a great compare and contrast available right here, though. An earlier post where I was installing a portable generator had an electrician offer some very valuable input to that project---great because there isn't mush info out there for what I wanted to do. He was very respectful, and it was clear to me his passion was towards electrical work and helping people. What a great thing---sharing your talent to help people succeed in what they want to do. Then someone else came along, clearly threatened by owner/builders taking on his trade. Nothing constructive was offered. His passion isn't for safe electric work--his passion is towards being right, and being the smartest in the room.
We are owner/builders. We start with a vision and raw land, almost always financially challenged, and get to work. With help from forums, books, advice, and other resources, we strive to build a structure that's better than what's mass produced to the edge of what's allowable. We bring together all the disciplines of construction to make a safe, code compliant, fire resistive building.
To be sure a tradesperson will know the rules better. Can probably work faster, maybe even save some materials by closer estimates. But most tradespeople are doing a job and are not emotionally attached to the project. They aren't creating something new, just following established rules. The electrician with an ego, for example, didn't discover Ohm's law. He may understand what Volta discovered and Ampere's Law and Tesla's work----but he is only leveraging what others discovered. The trades constantly improve, though, with input and invention from the trades to their credit.
Owner/builders are capable of the same leverage. In this age of internet, it isn't difficult to build on information easily accessed.
A tradesman can be of huge help in every single stage of construction. Find the ones that are passionate about their trade, not passionae about protecting their trade. People that are passionate about anything other than themselves are always great to be around and surrounded by friends and lead rich lives, from what I've observed. Good example---look at the moderators of this site. They are selling house plans here, but are just as willing to help people with projects here that have nothing to do with their plans including offering very valuable advice. If they called people stupid for not buying their plans, would this site be nearly as popular?

MushCreek · December 19, 2013, 07:09:08 PM

A properly trained owner/builder will usually far exceed the work done by a pro. Around here, contractors build code-minimum, and cheat like heck on that. My friend has a house that was built by a local builder about 10 years ago. It's a poster child for code violations, yet it passed all of the required inspections. As an example, there is a covered wrap-around porch. Underneath, there is a garage door opening into the basement. The rim joist on this porch is one ply, not double. There is a joint right over the center of the garage door opening, and nothing behind the joint to reinforce it. To add insult to injury, there is a porch column right over the joint! So not only is the joint improperly built, it's being asked to support part of the porch roof. Needless to say, it is sagging rather ominously. We're going to fix that, soon.

In the basement of this house there are wires hanging down all over the place, loosely stapled to the bottom of the joists (violation) on about 6' centers (violation). The plumbing and A/C ducts are just a total mess.

This is not to say all contractors are bad. I'm sure there are plenty of good ones around. And there are certainly bad DIY'ers as well. But my original statement still stands. My DIY house far exceeds code in terms of strength, insulation, wiring, and plumbing. It would have cost me a fortune to have had it custom built to my specs!

December 19, 2013, 07:33:01 PM

Contractors---lowest bidder faster install possible

Owner--------Cost best product for the job usually - takes twice as long as a contractor but the job is usually superior- if the homework has been done.

can mistakes be made, of course, we are not all infallible, even pro's get caught out

Aprentiship...........I concider a better way for a tradesman to learn his craft than a degree...

My professional who installed my main breaker on the house mounted it so the main back ducts alighned directly with the double plate

rather than 3" up where they would enter the wall space.....
or 3" lower to enter the rim joist and basement

Luckily with a 2x4 I managed to lever up the install /stretch the installation up enough to get the ducts straight into the wall

flyingvan · December 19, 2013, 07:41:01 PM

Absolutely, and great point. Every single step of building there were shortcuts that could have been taken, but for just a little more money and a little more effort get a far better product. From nail schedule to sheer panel thickness to insulation to wire AWG to copper pipe thickness; even the quality of the paint. I know I'v emade this point before, but if it saves $50 on one house it's miniscule. Multiply that by 10,000 units you're going to build and you're talking serious profit margin.
I don't build thinking 30 year structure lifespan; I'm shooting for 150 years. It sort of depends on how well the adhesives in OSB hold up over time. I may regret those TJI's if they start to flake apart

MountainDon · December 20, 2013, 01:40:37 AM

QuoteA properly trained owner/builder...

Not all are, and some that believe they are, aren't

Quote...if the homework has been done.

Too often the homework is not done well or completely

I do believe that with the proper level of research anything can be done by an owner / builder or help in choosing the best contractor to perform the job. There are a great number of projects here on countryplans that have been executed quite well. There is a tremendous amount of knowledge that must be assimilated for DIY success. Many DIY'ers have done themselves proud.

There can never be too many questions asked. When an answer to a question is not known for certain it is even more important to ask or do personal research, or both. We must remember that not everything seen on the internet is correct.

December 20, 2013, 08:32:52 AM

..And advice from an owner/builder, like me, is just that. It comes from 'Here was my similar challenge, here's how I handled it'. Digging deeper to know what the actual rules are and input from trade professionals (when presented in a positive way) should carry more weight.
Maybe there should be a whole 'nuther category here of 'failures', things we've tried that didn't work so well, inspectors had to correct, or out-and-out failures. It's all about putting slides in your slideshow---whenever you experience something you have another slide to refer to---but you can always borrow other people's slides too

rick91351 · December 20, 2013, 10:15:37 AM

I toss another log on the fire. Being the general contractor.....

When hiring someone from the 'trades' do not assume it will be done right. Do not assume your standards are his or her standards. You need to discus things out. Do not assume that something is part of the bid price. Do not assume that they will use materials you want used unless you specify what is expected and get it in writing. Be honest and up front, explain that is why I am asking so many stupid questions. I do not understand this part or what do you expect out of me other than paid when you are finished. Where can I help you and your crew should I hire you?

Hiring it done does not opt you out of the project. You still should or have to know what has to be done and how to do it. So why hire if you need to know. To me it is more man power than knowledge of how to. From a siding crew to a drywall crew. I don't want a sixty two year old guy to coming as a siding contractor by himself. I want to see enough people to get it done in a reasonable time. If I wanted the sixty two year old guy I would have DIYed it.

Best way to avoid costly mistakes - lots of adult supervision. When the cat is away the mice will play. Logic says that is why I hired it done so I don't have to be there. Perfect world that applies maybe. Do not assume one minute the subs you hire will be there tomorrow. So it has to be right today. Do not think that the guy you hired will be so user friendly when you call and say, "You know that toilet you installed on the second floor of the house. Well when you flush it the one below it on the first floor flushes as well." Do not assume that he is going to be right there. Do not assume he will even be in business a month from now, or a year from now. One guy I hired is now a cop..... One guy is now a speed freak so both are quite useless if I need them to correct something.

When hiring from the trades make yourself available to work. Inevitably blocking goes missing, be there to cut a board, grab your nail apron and help. Watch for places that you can assist without being a pain or being in the way. Where are they going to need extension cords or materials next? Be ready to make decisions, and don't let them paint you into a corner. If the drywall sub gets the lid hung (ceiling) but has to pull out for a week what can you do? You can get the insulation blown in to the ceiling. So make sure he gives you a crawl space, make sure they are not leaving dry wall leaning where you are going to have to work or someone from the trades will have to work. Do not loose a week just because someone has a prior commitment.

Just a few things I have found over the years of DIY and subbing somethings out.

John Raabe · December 20, 2013, 02:50:10 PM

Good advice all.

There are many ways in which an involved owner can build their house. Very few will handle all the trades themselves - or if they do - they may later wish they hadn't.

Here are some of those ways:

http://www.countryplans.com/5-builders.html

Don_P · December 20, 2013, 02:55:00 PM

Quote..And advice from an owner/builder, like me, is just that. It comes from 'Here was my similar challenge, here's how I handled it'.

That advice usually comes from less experience and from a shorter timeframe viewpoint. Someone who works in a trade for a lifetime does have a different perspective, they have done and seen more and hopefully can avoid reinventing the wheel over and over. Whenever I hear someone saying they are "overbuilding" something I can usually alk over and spot the weak link that is underbuilt, that is the point of failure no matter how much time and material was wasted elsewhere.

Last week a couple of us were criticized for being too negative in pointing out errors. I like to explain how things are done correctly and try not to point out the vast majority of problems to avoid putting people constantly on the defensive. The people here are not my clients and never will be, I don't mind sharing what I can with them, or for that matter with those who are, or will be, my clients. Knowledge is but one part of what I offer to my clients and is easily shared when the right question is asked. Digging deep enough to answer a question in a way that is fully useable to the questioner is a bit more difficult. Something as subtle as the difference between hitting a nail and driving a nail is rather hard to explain in words, but rather easy to show to an apprentice, and that is a very basic skill. The difficulties explaining rather than in showing how things are done are quite real. Look at the difficulties most folks have in working on their roofs. If you worked alongside me for a day and watched how to use your body and the sheets to advantage, things would go smoother and safer up there... but you all seem to manage in one way or another and that is fine also, it's the nature of sweat equity. Having an eye for how to think through loads and details takes time, there is no substitute.

My slideshow of others work this week would have multiple pictures of mistakes and a lot of upset people if we went that route. Some people can take constructive criticism but that is actually a pretty rare individual. Some people, the fellow that prompted this rant are not really functional personalities no matter what profession they choose. That is not a fault of the trade but of that individual. We've all run into toxic personalities in every walk of life. There is a difference in being on the job to help and being on the job to try to micromanage others. I've had both types of clients, some are a joy and others can actually waste more time than they are worth. I've had folks who've watched a few episodes of TV on construction who think they know the trade and within reason, if they want to be right, no problem. If they want to cross lines that I know shouldn't be crossed I try to protect them from themselves, another thing I quietly bring to the table. If I do it well you don't even notice. I have had to put my foot down a few times and say simply that "I can't do that" and let the chips fall where they may.

As in most things there is far more gray than black and white and the broad brush is inappropriate and does more to divide than bring together. But yes I understand and appreciate the nature of the upset.

December 21, 2013, 11:33:27 AM

I am so glad that others want to tackle areas of their homes and cabins and places where angles fear to tread. Myself I pretty much know where I want 100% ownership and where it pays to pick up the phone. I like working with wood and concrete. I do not like pipes, and roofing.

Electrical work - Seems everyone including myself wants to be an electrician. Everyone I have hired I follow around like a puppy when I can. They are usually a pleasant sort and like to share and empower....

Get it empower- electrician? Okay not that funny. But I learn more and more every time I am working around one. But I am sure not one. I do not wish to go off to places that require formulas of voltage reduction for size and distance of line run.

That said I like to pull wire or help where I can. The last electrician I had he would have been more than glad to let me do it and keep a close eye on me. He did ask that I not do anything while he was not there.

Two days he brought an Hispanic apprentice and wow he worked so well with him. My service panel was the first one he completely wired in he told me. The last journeyman this kid apprenticed under had refused to record his hours worked. Turned out when the journeyman was call on this. He admitted he hated Mexicans - did not know how much he worked because he could not trust a Mexican to do anything and he had to do everything. Sad part of the trades....

I think we are have areas where it sort of clicks, and some area where it sort of sputters and some areas well the gears just do not engage. One of those places not engaging is plumbing for me......

If I have too I most likely can but I just do not want to. Oh I am not talking about running some inch and a quarter black ply and a couple frost free hydrants. (I have them scattered all over.) Nor am I talking putting in septic systems. (I have put in a couple of those.) I am talking plumbing like in a house. I do not know that much about it and for some reason I have never wished to empower myself there.

Going into build this house I pretty much decided that plumbing, electrical, drywall, roof and the siding was going to be subbed out. But it sure does not to me mean I have any-less ownership in this project.

flyingvan · December 22, 2013, 12:39:03 PM

I don't think subbing anything out should reflect on ownership of the project one bit---especially if the contractor isn't taking creative license (Unless you hired a specific person because you had an affinity for their style, like commissioning an artist) Also if I had to live in the house I was building immediately I would have contracted out lots of things. Since I was paying cash as I went along I took my time.
But I had another motive for doing it all myself. It made me a better firefighter. So many aspects of building construction dovetail with firefighting---'reading' a structure to establish safe zones. Looking at the exterior to figure out the interior floorplan. Spotting faulty wiring. Truss roof and TJI floor construction issues. How to breach tempered windows, defeat doors, pull a toilet quickly (actually a very important skill. A few inches of water used for extinguishment can collapse a floor pretty quickly, and creating a nice 4" drain can get rid of most of it)
I really enjoy the electrical work, from the planning stage to the finish work. I learned to pre-drill my studs prior to framing, especially in corners--something difficult to do in stages when subbing. (metal studs come ready to run wire and TJI's have knockouts; it's key to always cut the same end of these so the hole line up)
I can't say I enjoyed the plumbing stage too much. There are quite a few rules that need to be followed. Cutting into my beautiful framing to run DWV pipe was hard. Then there was the elbow in the gas line way under the house where it turned up the wall where I failed to put the pipe dope.. (thank goodness for the invention of reverse thread pipes and fittings!) The fire sprinklers were intimidating, but turned out to be no big deal--after all, it's only the distribution side. Still haven't tried PEX---Kalifornia forbid it for a brief time, right when I was going through plan check. The PEX people hadn't paid off the right people yet.