undersized framing ... how to strengthen?

[Billy Bob]

Sounds like you are about happy with your faming mods, Hal.

I have used some of the "hung" ceiling systems to good effect.  Quick, light, easy, some insulating effect, and fire rated.  The trade off is, there's no way they don't remind me of a car dealership, or school gymnasium.  There's some that re-create the look of a tin ceiling, but I havn't tried them, or know anybody who has.  Well. maybe I do, and didn't realize it wasn't original Victorian.
Hmm, speaking of, might be good for Victoria's Cottage!
A quick search turned up these folks:

http://www.architecturaldepot.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?

who claim to supply "original" stamped tiles.  The pricing does not seem too bad, if you like the look.  I have seen  as low as $2.00/sq.ft. so far from another source, but they were 12"x tiles as opposed to these 2'x4' panels.

[Amanda_931]

And on the Architectural Depot site you get to see the scary guy looking around, hoping you will play his video!

[manhattan42]

Bartholomew said:

"Well, Owens Corning respectfully disagrees with you."

No, you are wrong.

What Owens Corning has completely SUPPORTED my claim:

Compressing insulation ALWAYS results in a LOWER R-value.

You remain confused, Bartholomew and remain so because you are comparing apples to Dells.

It is as Glenn notes.

It is NOT that compressing fiberglass ever increases R-value. That just does not happen.

What can happen is that by using a compressed THICKER original insulation stuffed into a smaller cavity, you get a greater R value than if you used an uncompressed 'regular' size for that cavity thickness.

You are confusing issues.

R-38 made for a 2x12 cavity when compressed into a smaller 2x10 ALWAYS results in LESS R-value.
You will only get an R-35 not and R-38.

Where you are missing the point is that if you compress a nominal 12 inch batts of fiberglass, you lose R-value all the time and the ONLY way to make up the difference is to INCREASE THE DENSITY BY ADDING MORE FIBERGLASS FIBERS.

High density insulation works ONLY because there are more fibers per inch. And these are necessary to be added because compressing the fiberglass only decreases R value.

[bartholomew]

Hal, sounds good, good luck with the rest of your project!

Manhattan, my only claim was that compressing fiberglass increases the density thereby increasing the R-value per inch. If you re-read my posts you'll see that I've always qualified the term R-value as either total R-value or R-value per inch to avoid confusion. In your previous two posts it sounded like you were disagreeing with my claim, now it sounds like you are agreeing with me. Whatever, the point for Hal is that trimming the batts is a waste of both time and fiberglass as long as the batts will lie flat between the joists.

[manhattan42]

Bartholomew said in an earlier post:

" From Owens-Corning's site, ""High density" means more fibers per square inch than standard insulation products. That means you get a higher R-value per inch."

THIS is a correct and true statement.

High density fiberglass is created by INCREASING the amount of fibers per square inch, NOT by compressing the fiberglass.

Compressing the fiberglass results ONLY in a net REDUCTION of R-value per inch.

You're arguments only illustrate that in some[/i] limited circumstances where you can cram a thicker insulation than intended into a smaller-than-designed-for-cavity can you achieve a slightly higher R-value per inch.

But this 'higher density by compression' phenomenon works only in limited circumstances as even Owens-Corning states from the webiste you provided.

Increase in R-value per inch, in reality, is only practically created by adding more fibers per inch, and that is only done by increasing the density by increasing the VOLUME of fibers, NOT by compressing the insulation....

Compression without an added increase in fibers still results in a net R-value loss for a given cavity dimension.

And the greater the compression, the greater the energy loss....

But as with Hal and his amateur structural alterations to his ceiling structure (which may likely have no net positive effect on the structural stability of his ceiling and actually created more structural problems than it will solve).... rather than do things right....some insist on doing things half-assed even when the end result may be worse than if they did nothing at all...because in their minds they have 'saved' a buck...and have overlooked the fact it may cost them more in the long run by actually have done it wrong. <shrugs>

I'm called in all the time as a professional builder to repair such silliness.

You can lead a horse to the trough but if he just won't drink....(because it's his house and he values ignorance and blindness over knowledge and enlightenment)....he'll just end up knee-deep in recycled oats.

And that's his perogative.

[glenn kangiser]

Manhattan - people respond much better to nice replies than they do to rude ones.  The inpectors people like to deal with are the ones that are both helpful and tactful.  We recognize your obvious knowledge and training.  Now all you have to work on is learnng to present things in a manner that will make people like you.  Enemies are easy to come by.  It does not degrade your status one bit by being a nice guy.  When I encounter an unreasonable inspector on the job, I go over his head and have him removed from the job.  We all have to answer to someone.

I personally feel that since Hal has upgraded the little house rafters in what seems like a reasonable manner, he only has less than  a 16 foot span, and the house has already proven it will stand for the last 70 years that his improvements are adequate.  If it was new construction or he had codes to deal with it would be another issue.  During the last 70 years it has probably already went through at least one one-hundred year event.  We aren't guaranteeing him anything but as you mentioned, if he has issues to deal with that he feels are unsafe, then he should call in a local professional.

[Billy Bob]

Thanks, Glenn, for your measured response.  I think it is important that we maintain an environment of cordiality on this forum.  It is too darned good to mess up!

Thanks for posting the link to the Ag Extension site, too.  I had lost that one, and was making heavy weather of finding it again.  There are plans available that address many of the subjects in this forum, such as homebuilt furniture, wind power, etc.  I encourage anyone who hasn't checked it out yet to do so.

[glenn kangiser]

No Problem, Billy Bob.  People have mentioned that other forums have people picking on other people and making them unpleasant places.  I will not allow intimidation or deriding members here.  I want this to be a place where even the most timid new members are not afraid to ask questions and learn.

I also enjoy looking at the old plans -- lots to be learned there.