Icynene question

[raybob]

Can't take lurking anymore (need to ask a question).  Is this statement I found in a brochure true?

"Icynene® also allows for new design strategies, according to Mr. Cartledge, "By its nature, Icynene® requires no ventilation space from soffit to ridge, which increases design freedom for both the exterior and interior of the house. Icynene® is intended to fill all of the gaps and crevices, thus eliminating the need to leave a path for air ventilation within the rafters."

Bob

[glenn kangiser]

Welcome, raybob.  No excuse needed.  Pop on in here.  We don't bite.  Except PEG but hopefully you are not that close to him. :-/

Okie BoB swears by it and that is the way his is done with no complaint from him.  He is their number one salesman.

[raybob]

Thanks.  Trying to figure out how to deal with termites, tornadoes, and mold is wearing me out (I'm in Northern Alabama, suffering a lot of heat right now).

Bob

[glenn kangiser]

We also are hot - all summer.  Okie BoB will jump on this when he shows up.  He's an Icynene sort of guy.

He's semi-regular here ....hmmm - maybe Ex-lax?  :-?

But we really enjoy Okie BoB when he drops in.

[Okie_Bob]

Aw shucks Glen, you have given away my secret desire for a new job. Icynene salesman!
Yep, Raybob, I'm a beleiver in Icynene. You can see some pics of the Icynene in my blog
at http://www.bobdanaslakehouse.blogspot.com/
I really don't work for them or get any kickbacks..unless they want to send some (money that is).
I used factory sissor trusses and completely sealed the roof, walls and under the pier and beam floor. It's expensive but, I'm hoping to get a quick pay back with the recent increase in energy costs.
I did a garage with an apartment to live in while building the house. I used Icynene in it but, did use roof ventilation with soffet vents and a fan in the attic. You can go either way in my opinion but, I feel the no vent way might be a little better. I've had no problems other than static from Glenn, John and even Peg on occasion.
Okie Bob

[raybob]

Okie Bob:

That's real close to my plan (garage, apartment above) only it gets a lot simpler if I have no soffit.  From what I've read here, PEG will warn against it; thought I'd field opinions. :-?

Bob

[glenn kangiser]

Oh ... Hi Okie BoB.  Seems whenever I say something about you , you show right up.

I think the deal is that if there is no space for moisture to move and settle in, then there is no problem.

Thanks for your input and help and opinions and in general, just being an all around wonderful guy, Okie BoB.

[John_M]

I think PEG and Okie Bob should settle this with an arm wrestling match...or maybe rock, paper, scissors.  Glenn can be the ref!!

[glenn kangiser]

Arm wrestling -- I've been caught running with scissors. :'(

[Okie_Bob]

Hummmm...not sure what this is all about...Peg and I seem to always agree...we have no argument that I know of.
Glenn, I always thought the 'running with sissors' deal was just mothers way of keeping us kids in line. Till I met my next door neighbor at the lake. He has an obvious bad eye and once I got to know him found out that that is exactly what happened to him....5 years old, running with sissors, stabbed himself in the eye and lost it for good! Why was mom always right?
Glenn you da man.
Okie Bob

[glenn kangiser]

I think there was a bit of kidding around there BoB.  You and PEG are generally always on good behavior.

Yeah - I never fell with the scissors in fact I was really just alluding to my general bad behavior.

The only thing I remember stabbing myself with was a knife -- it went through something easier than I thought it would and the tip went about an inch or so into my Biceps brachii muscle.  I put a Bandaid on it.  Still shows.

Other than that I only recall getting stabbed with a fork.... My brother got stabbed with a fork... He threw it at me first.  

He missed but when I threw it back it stuck in his leg like a little flag pole.

He started crying for mom. :'(  OK -- Not just crying...  Screaming..."Maaaaaaa....Glenn stuck a fork in my leg-g-g-g." :'( :'( :'(

I'm the one who got in trouble.

I'm not the one who started it....  He did.

[MountainDon]

But you drew "first blood".  I'd would have sued her.  

[glenn kangiser]

Is there a statute of limitations on forking? :-?

[raybob]

Depends.  How old was your brother at the time?

On a less indulgent note, I think I understand the icynene thing now.  With everything sealed tight, all spaces filled, then there is no place for moist air to go, and, hence, no place for condensation within the structure.  Is that right?

Bob

[glenn kangiser]

Brother was probably about 8 - ornery little devil with fire in his eyes.  Do you think that will be in my favor?
Sorry -- no old pictures or proof of the fire.


Yup -- that's the idea Bob.  Okie BoB is our guinea pig and he has nothing but praise for it and says he has no problems.  I would say that it not only eliminates the air space so no moisture can be there, but it also raises the dew point temperature on the inside to a high enough level that what moisture there is in there will likely not condense also, so no space - no dew point, no liquid moisture condensing and dripping.

[scottb]

roofing will be vented (metal vents itself) with shingles you need to make some air channels,   attic is sealed http://www.buildingscienceconsulting.com/resources/roofs/default.htm  lots of roof info  http://www.buildingscienceconsulting.com/resources/resources.htm   complete list.

[glenn kangiser]

If the metal is installed directly to wood purlins the icynene will be sprayed direct to it - no vent.  If there was felt under the metal then it would vent but my understanding from Okie BoB was that his was sprayed on direct to the metal.  Maybe he will pop in here and clarify that.

[peter nap]

Raybob, do you have a guestimate of the cost per square foot to apply Icynene to the roof?

[raybob]

I'm guessing somewhere around a buck per inch of thickness for a square foot (buck a board inch).  Maybe a bit more.

Bob

[Okie_Bob]

Several questions above that need response. First, Glenn, bet he was trying to get that chicken leg off your plate and you were only defending your dinner? Totally justified then. Case closed.

Believe the cost is more like $1.20 sf or maybe even a little more depending on how thick you want it could be slightly less per additional inch of thickness.
And yes, Glenn, it's sprayed directly to the underside of the metal roof. The guy I got my info from says you seal the entire attic with icynene effectively making a box. He had pics of houses with temp recorders installed and less than 1/10 degree difference between the living space and the attic which is pretty amazing here in Texas summertime. If you think about it what you have is your living space under a large box which is completely sealed with insulation like a dead space above your ceiling. Hot air rises and since it has nowhere to go, it gets cooled by your a/c unit and doesn't give up heat to the attic as normal. And since the temp is the same in both, no condensation either.
Something like that.
Okie Bob

[Jimmy C.]

Hey Bob!
What is the contact info for the guy you used? I built mine with perlins to metal then put up styrofoam strip vents and  insulation. I got a little condensation last year. I am thinking about going this route now..

[raybob]

Okie-BoB says:

And yes, Glenn, it's sprayed directly to the underside of the metal roof.

Does it matter if one uses corrugated or standing seam?  I'd guess the standing seam might seal better from the spray.  Some of the web material seems to indicate that the corrugated is used over felt, over rigid foam board, over vapor barrier, over sheathing, and the spray foam is then applied between the rafters underneath the sheathing.  This may be overkill.  I don't know.  But the argument that it moves the condensation point to the outside of the structure makes some sense.  Down here in Dixie, we're dealing with 75% relative humidity and 95F degree days.  Ugh.

Bob

[glenn kangiser]

I don't think Icynene cares what type metal it is sticking to.  I picture it as sticking to everything no matter what shape or size.  If you go into the project planning on using icynene, I think a lot of the extra sheathing, vapor barriers etc, is wasted money.  The Icynene will take care of all of that except racking resistance but the diaphragm action of the sheeting should provide that..

How about that Okie BoB?

Totally justified sticking him with the fork, BoB -- that's the way I see it.  He threw it at me fully intending on it doing whatever it would do.  No concern as to the possibility of it sticking into me.  I can't help it if I was a better shot when I threw it back at him.

On another note, I did have to shoot him one time for teasing my dog.  

He was across the crick (that's the way you say it up there) and my dog was over there.  He liked to make me mad by making mean vile disgusting faces and raising his arms in the air like a monster at my nice little protective dog (Toy McNabb Shepherd as I recall - kind of like a Border Collie).  

Trying to save me from the monster, my poor little dog would have to bark and bark and growl at him.  In all fairness I did warn him that if he didn't stop teasing my dog I was going to have to shoot.  Maybe even twice.  

Not letting that stop him, he did it again.  Pow.  The shot rang out.  I only pointed the rifle in his general direction and fired in an effort to scare him and make him believe I was serious, but as luck would have it -- even aiming the rifle from the hip, I was a much better shot than I intended to be.

The Beebee lodged itself into one of his knuckles.  "MAAaaaaaaaa, Glenn shot me with the Beebee gun."  "What?". "I -(sniff-sniff -whine -whine-cry-cry), I never did nuthin (sniff)".

Guess who caught hell over that one. :-/  

[tc-vt]

Has anyone used closed cell foam?

Icynene is open cell and has a higher permeance than the closed cell.  Despite this, a vapor barrier is still usually unnecessary.  This link gives some information:

http://www.prairiefoam.com/factsheets/vapor.htm

Tom

[raybob]

Why do I get the feeling that Icynene and Amsoil are the same company?

Bob