New Nortern Missouri Build - New Guy

[GSPDOG]

If I got this right the piers are based on observing older standing pole barn construction. I probably should not admit to this but I had no idea what a pole barn was. I knew a horse barn was where you lept horses, so... it did not add up.  I googled.    Now I know, and that got me thinking again, not always a good thing.

I think I see a difference between what I read about poles barns and what I see in your plan. Maybe it makes a difference, maybe it doesn't?.

I found pole barns with poles extending from 2, 3, 4 feet deep in the ground and running up to the roofline. Your poles are short, stopping at the floor line. I guess that what makes them piers and not poles. Does this change matter?     I ask because sometimes concepts lose something when modified and they don't work as well as the original model.   I have a killer cake recipe, but if I left out the eggs it would not be the same. Not the best analogy maybe, but the best I could come up with. 

If I understand what is going on in a pole barn, at least ones with side walls, is that the walls tie the poles and everything together into a box structure. The walls help make it stiff and keep the poles ends in the dirt pointed where they should stay pointed. But when the long poles become short piers the whole thing loses that box on top that stiffens the pole legs. There's a dividing line at the floor line. So are the piers now freer to move in the dirt because they don't have long upper ends with the barn box on top?  I don't know if I'm making that clear or if it matters or not?

Pole Barns were and still a viable solution to cold storage for ag equipment.  Basics the poles hold the structure up linear horizontal lumber for stability and something to screw sheet metal  into.  They typically put trusses 8' (yes eight feet) OC they are not designed for over head storage typically.  Old barns in may cases had hay lofts so included interior post for additional support.  With todays hay wraps most hay is no longer stored that way.

Any ways the post height becomes risky the higher you go the larger the pole to prevent it from being pulled out of the ground and to support the above ground structure.  an analogy; when we are going to take large trees down we use a crawler and with the bucket high on the tree we can typically push them over.  If I was to cut the same tree down and leave 5 feet of the stump out the ground it is almost impossible to move it with out digging around it first and cutting the roots.

The potential risk with piers improper placement and since the weight in my case is distributed over 12 post if I screw-up putting them in and one settles the structure becomes tilted.  On the positive side I will be able to find all my marbles in one corner of the house. :LOL:

[Carla_M]

I knew I didn't take enough time to explain my thought process. Some of my own analogies go wide of the mark. I think this one misses to a large degree as well if I have thought this out correctly. I'll try to explain why. There are a few things that came to mind.

First of all though, I want to say I've seen pushing over 70 foot pines and firs when clearing to make a new road. It's pretty awesome to see how easy the trees go over. But that's pushing on one tree at a time, not many trees that are tied together as they are, or should be, in a building.

1.  I don't think you can compare pushing over a whole tree with the push point far up the trunk to pushing over a cut off stump where you are pushing lower down, like 5 feet above ground level. Yes the 5 foot length will be more difficult. But if our planned cabin was built on stumps or piers, the fair comparison would be to nail the cut off tree trunk to the stump, raise the bucket and then push at the same upper level as before and see what happens. A cabin on short piers is basically nailed to the tops of the short piers. The pole structure has the post running through the wall from roof down to the bottom and the footing. I see that as a big difference.

2.  Trees have a root system that can be quite complex. I'm not sure it is fair to compare that to a timber stuck in the ground even if there is concrete on the lower end. A test measuring the forces required would make for an interesting article.

3.  The pole barns I looked at all had wall panels spanning the distances between poles, just like you'd have in a horse barn or a cabin. That ties the poles all together where they act as a team not individuals. Like this one.



Or this one that I can easily imagine could be a cabin I could live with.



.From what I already know it is important to have some full sheets of sheathing on the exterior. That becomes a braced wall and is usually osb in a cabin. I'm told some metal panels have a similar structural grading, some don't. With the pole wall framed to provide a nailing surface the braced wall sections make the wall very stiff as a group. If we push in the direction along the wall it will take extraordinary force to distort the wall or displace the posts. You could still cause the wall to lean and perhaps displace the posts if you pushed against the face of the wall, not the edge.

The little horse barn is almost all braced wall, except for the front. But the front has those upper panels which must be providing some of the same bracing across the front.

What I've read says that much of the strength of a pole building comes from all the parts working in concert. The tall poles become great anchors when installed with an anchoring system. The wall panels on all four walls resist the sideways wind forces. A well done roof will add more stiffness or strength. Add a floor and we add more stiffness. Does that not make sense? It is a unit. Cut the poles off and stack the building on top and the unit is changed. The box on top may still be rigid but the total is changed.

If I take a corrugated cardboard box and cut the top and bottom off I have four walls of a model building. Then if I stick knitting needles vertically through the corrugates and into the ground I simulate the structure of a pole barn. If I also stick a single needle in the ground I can compare the box to the single pole or needle. This is assuming the dirt was competent (I do like that expression  ) and is not muck or some other undesirable material. Of course if the dirt was muck the single tree would be even easier to topple.

I know that my wooden fence was much sturdier in the corners where the north-south line turned 90 degrees into the east-west line. Twenty feet down the back line I could easily shake it but not so at the corner. In fact twenty feet down the line was where a big section blew out in a wind storm. The corners stood though.

The one thing I'm not certain of is how to put a floor in pole building, other than using a concrete slab. I could see a slab being a good floor. I've had homes like that before. There must be a good way to construct a raised wood floor but what I was reading was talking about barns, some with dirt floors, not homes and didn't cross that line. I did come across a picture showing a wood floor, but no explanation. Here it is.



I also found what I think is a good illustration of the footing for a pole barn.



I thought it was of interest to see that a pole could be built up just as I've seen beams built up. But then I do remember someone pointing out that a pole or a column is just a beam stood on end.

And I see the rebar through the post more or less as your drawing shows. That anchors the post in the concrete collar at the bottom of the hole. 


An analogy popped into my head.    When my kids were young I made some stilts for them. I thought they were safer than skateboards. I used 2x2's and screwed on some wood pieces to stand on. As they became more proficient I raised the blocks up the legs. I could have added lengths of 2x2 at the lower end. Would that have been strong enough? As it was we got to a point where a knot in the 2x2 weakened the leg enough that the lower end broke off. That was when we discovered arms can be broken falling off stilts as easily as falling off a skateboard. But we also learned how we needed "footings" on the bottom to keep from sinking into the wet lawn.

[Carla_M]

A bit of a thread drift here, a hijack! Thinking out loud and looking for input from anyone - - -

If a person did want to base a cabin design on a post frame system and if they wanted to sheath the walls with osb like a normal stick built cabin, would it be okay to frame between the poles instead of using the horizontal girts outside the poles. That might make finishing the interior easier. I realize the vertical spacing could be a problem to make the panel widths work out.

[GSPDOG]

Finalized the basic detailed framing tonight.  Windows and doors and door framing details come next.  Using "Sketch up" for these models as it allows me to create 3D models of each element and build it as if I was on site building it.  This will give you some idea of the loft dimensions as well.   Agree the prebuilt cabins are very hot they also do not have any kind of decent ventilation.

[GSPDOG]

I knew I didn't take enough time to explain my thought process. Some of my own analogies go wide of the mark. I think this one misses to a large degree as well if I have thought this out correctly. I'll try to explain why. There are a few things that came to mind.

First of all though, I want to say I've seen pushing over 70 foot pines and firs when clearing to make a new road. It's pretty awesome to see how easy the trees go over. But that's pushing on one tree at a time, not many trees that are tied together as they are, or should be, in a building.

1.  I don't think you can compare pushing over a whole tree with the push point far up the trunk to pushing over a cut off stump where you are pushing lower down, like 5 feet above ground level. Yes the 5 foot length will be more difficult. But if our planned cabin was built on stumps or piers, the fair comparison would be to nail the cut off tree trunk to the stump, raise the bucket and then push at the same upper level as before and see what happens. A cabin on short piers is basically nailed to the tops of the short piers. The pole structure has the post running through the wall from roof down to the bottom and the footing. I see that as a big difference.

2.  Trees have a root system that can be quite complex. I'm not sure it is fair to compare that to a timber stuck in the ground even if there is concrete on the lower end. A test measuring the forces required would make for an interesting article.

3.  The pole barns I looked at all had wall panels spanning the distances between poles, just like you'd have in a horse barn or a cabin. That ties the poles all together where they act as a team not individuals. Like this one.



Or this one that I can easily imagine could be a cabin I could live with.



.From what I already know it is important to have some full sheets of sheathing on the exterior. That becomes a braced wall and is usually osb in a cabin. I'm told some metal panels have a similar structural grading, some don't. With the pole wall framed to provide a nailing surface the braced wall sections make the wall very stiff as a group. If we push in the direction along the wall it will take extraordinary force to distort the wall or displace the posts. You could still cause the wall to lean and perhaps displace the posts if you pushed against the face of the wall, not the edge.

The little horse barn is almost all braced wall, except for the front. But the front has those upper panels which must be providing some of the same bracing across the front.

What I've read says that much of the strength of a pole building comes from all the parts working in concert. The tall poles become great anchors when installed with an anchoring system. The wall panels on all four walls resist the sideways wind forces. A well done roof will add more stiffness or strength. Add a floor and we add more stiffness. Does that not make sense? It is a unit. Cut the poles off and stack the building on top and the unit is changed. The box on top may still be rigid but the total is changed.

If I take a corrugated cardboard box and cut the top and bottom off I have four walls of a model building. Then if I stick knitting needles vertically through the corrugates and into the ground I simulate the structure of a pole barn. If I also stick a single needle in the ground I can compare the box to the single pole or needle. This is assuming the dirt was competent (I do like that expression  ) and is not muck or some other undesirable material. Of course if the dirt was muck the single tree would be even easier to topple.

I know that my wooden fence was much sturdier in the corners where the north-south line turned 90 degrees into the east-west line. Twenty feet down the back line I could easily shake it but not so at the corner. In fact twenty feet down the line was where a big section blew out in a wind storm. The corners stood though.

The one thing I'm not certain of is how to put a floor in pole building, other than using a concrete slab. I could see a slab being a good floor. I've had homes like that before. There must be a good way to construct a raised wood floor but what I was reading was talking about barns, some with dirt floors, not homes and didn't cross that line. I did come across a picture showing a wood floor, but no explanation. Here it is.



I also found what I think is a good illustration of the footing for a pole barn.



I thought it was of interest to see that a pole could be built up just as I've seen beams built up. But then I do remember someone pointing out that a pole or a column is just a beam stood on end.

And I see the rebar through the post more or less as your drawing shows. That anchors the post in the concrete collar at the bottom of the hole. 


An analogy popped into my head.    When my kids were young I made some stilts for them. I thought they were safer than skateboards. I used 2x2's and screwed on some wood pieces to stand on. As they became more proficient I raised the blocks up the legs. I could have added lengths of 2x2 at the lower end. Would that have been strong enough? As it was we got to a point where a knot in the 2x2 weakened the leg enough that the lower end broke off. That was when we discovered arms can be broken falling off stilts as easily as falling off a skateboard. But we also learned how we needed "footings" on the bottom to keep from sinking into the wet lawn.

The final building build is a good description of how I am building the barns the cabin will be lower to the ground and have traditional house framing on the sub floor.

[GSPDOG]

Made a video of the design update. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2PgLn-3tJM&feature=youtu.be

[Squirl]

I don't know if you answered this.  I tried to keep up with the posts.  I don't see any separate girder from the floor framing.  What is the size/span of the girders?

[GSPDOG]

Every thing is 16" OC Floor Joist ( Second Floor ) and Rafters.  The 1st floor will be a poured foundation actually pouring the slab on top the footing walls tomorrow I will have pictures when I get back of the progress.  The girders are 2x12 across 16", they will be sitting on the top plate 5" overlap with the exterior wall attached to the top plate and the rafter beam, hurricane strapped as well.  Half of the 32 foot distance is also sitting on an interior 2x4 wall as well.  The trusses will all be 2x6.    The ground floor girders went away since we poured the foundation.

[GSPDOG]

So ground is broke I actually accomplished a great deal before todays rain.

So a little walk through.


We brought the concert across the dam we have had a few days of dry, so the footing went in set up and then the footing walls went up.  The final day we poured the slab. As you can see the truck compressed the gravel pretty good but it did not cause any issues.  This dam is a little less than a year old.  This is the smaller what I call the duck pond as it is only 4 feet deep.  and was designed more for the purpse of getting us a across a very steep valley so I could move farm equipment over the area without worrying about a roll over.

So we put in the on site sewage lagoon.  Had it inspected on Friday it passed so we were free and clear to start the rest of the building, in this area that was the only building inspection.  Does not mean we will not follow code we just have no additional inspections required.

Lagoons are prevalent in this area since we have a heavy clay once you get past 24".  As I have pointed out in this area dig a hole it will fill up with water and stay that way.





So the biggest question I get about these - Do they smell, not if they are built in the right place and sized for the buildings they are supporting.  This is a 30' x 30' lagoon designed to support a 1 or 2 bedroom home.

This is a great resource for describing how they are to be built and guidance in Missouri. http://extension.missouri.edu/p/WQ402

.... and yes I put two cleanouts in even though only one is required.    There will actually be three if you count the one in the house.

If I ever have to snake the pipe I prefer snaking more than 50' at a time.  This is all Schedule 40 pipe.

Now to the pad so I have a local contractor I use put the footing and foundation in and he did that before I arrived so I did not get to take any pictures of those two elements.  But I was there for the pad as I had to layout plumbing for them.

 

So this is the framed up pad before plumbing layout.  There is rebar out of the foundation and rebar driven in the ground center line east to west every 8 feet.



From the southwest looking northeast.  Again you can see the main sewage line sticking out of the ground.  We dug out some gravel and put in the plumbing for the toilet, bath and vent stack.  There is also a conduit run so the waterline can be run into the house later.



Plumbing in place and concrete is poured.  Here you see the bath plumbed immediate north is the toilet 15" on center  from the edge of the tub. and 12 1/2" from the wall.  Keep this in mind the code calls fro 12" from the wall it means finished wall to make sure you measure for a finished wall.  I measure 12 1/2" from an unfinished stud wall and I have 1/2" in finish material to work with.  The pipe to the right of the toilet is the vent stack which will run inside of a 2 x 6 non weight bearing wall.  It will be a 3" dry vent running to the exterior of the building, however it will not run out of the roof.  Also worth noting none of my drains are more than 6 feet from the main vent, and do not require secondary venting, however I will be putting secondary venting on each of them, each sink will have secondary wet venting.



Finished slap with J bolts installed, framing starts on Sunday.   Guess I better go figure out where the windows are going to go.  Questions, suggestions or comments please let me know.   This is six bag mix about 4,000 psi with rebar, six inches thick.  You can drive a truck over it.

Oh since someone is going to ask.  Lagoon, flat work turn key cost what you see finished here $5,200 labor, materials, permits and inspection's. $3,200 of the $5,200 in concert and gravel. $900 for the lagoon, trenching and pipe to the cabin.  The rest in permits, inspection, rebar, plumbing materials and good old American labor.