Quote from: Redoverfarm on November 05, 2013, 06:58:55 PM


Yes the ground rod I would have to agree.  I would just be worried about grounding your battery bank to the generator battery.

I also sent you a PM

Looked it up and only references I found so far were related to robots and logic circuits but all of those seemed to think that unless there is a high voltage and low voltage circuit and logic is involved then it would be ok....guess I don't know for sure though.

Going to stop by the cabin today and check voltage on the battery terminals on the controller and on the batteries themselves and then report that back to Morningstar.  They are wondering if there is a voltage drop somewhere causing the LED's to read incorrectly.

Tried reprogramming the controller and forcing an eprom update.  Maybe that will solve the issue with the LED's but if not I'll install the battery monitor this weekend

 
you can often get wandering voltages and signals with electronics when the equipment does not have a common earth

All systems should have their earths common bonded

You can have multiple earth rods -as long as they are all tied together

Try to find some flat braided wire for connecting the grounds together.  1/4" is ok, but 1/2 or wider would be better.  Use this to tie the ground rods together and the equipment to the ground rods.

If you tie the equipment to a ground close to it, and then tie the rods together with a heavy (thick) strap, the voltage drop between grounds will be negligible and should not affect your circuit.  Tying the battery ground to the rest of the DC ground shouldn't be a problem.  If I recall, you don't want to mix the DC and the AC grounds together.

I'm using solid copper wire for my ground wire to the rod and using copper bar between the batteries.

On a side note I've begun to consider the flaw in my compost room design.  You see, I planned to put my solar power in there and keep the batteires nice and warm but then I thought:  what about hydrogen gas?  It occurred to me that the heater is basically an 'open flame' and flames and batteries don't mix well unless you want them to go BOOM.

Once I realized this little flaw I first thought I could build a sealed 'closet' for the batteries to reside in but the more I think about it the more I think it's probably just not a good idea.  So, for now I'll leave them on the porch as is and use the room for storage.  Maybe I'll put the freezer in there as it will be cooler then on the porch in summer and warmer then on the porch in winter.

This also puts me back to square one in which I have to once again consider how to keep the batteries above freezing in the winter.

A good, hefty solid wire is good, too.  The braided stuff is a bit easier to work with because it's a bit more flexible, and other reasons as well (which I used to be able to say, but without researching it again ... it's heck getting old) Back in the day, when I was in Tech School, I could have told you exactly what to use for best results ... but I think with what you've got going you'll be fine.

As for your batteries, the idea of putting them in the new "room" would have been great, as you said, but for the "open flame".  Hopefully you'll be able to figure it out ... how about a "grow" pad or two underneath them - or would that use too much of that stored electricity?

Spent 30 minutes on the phone with Backwoods Solar and the conclusion was to NOT put the batteries in the room even if they were to be placed in an enclosure of some kind -- though they say many do this I personally do not want to.

Next we discussed the current location and agree that it's probably best as is (which makes life a little easier for me anyway as I don't have to move anything then).  Only possibility is to build a box around them and insulate with R10 foam and then place a vent in the bottom of the box to draw air into the box and put in a vent fan that will run when the batteries reach 28vdc and begin to exhuast hydrogen.

Seems there is enough heat generation in general use of the batteries that they will likely stay pretty warm that way and I can insulate the room itself and use the bottom vent (since Hydrogen is lighter then air) to draw from inside the porch.  The exaust fan will mean I'll lose heat out that way but that can't be helped.

One thing I can do is add a heat lamp in the room and hook it up to the generator so it will only come on when the genny comes on.  This will provide some backup heat in the porch if the batteries drop to 23vdc and the genny comes on.

This also leaves the space in the new room that the batteries would have taken up and I'm thinking I'll put the chest freezer in there instead.  Sure it will mean I'll have to go out to it when I want something but it won't be on my porch which gets warm in the summer and cold in the winter neither condition probably the best for the freezer.

In the future I'll probably have to do like Don and build a battery box beside the porch (but outside).  Perhaps if I insulate it really well with R10 foam then maybe the batteries won't drop to freezing as they should heat it up through charging and discharging which generates heat after all.

On a different note, it's snowing up in those hills and here I am waiting on UPS and praying they get here SOON so I can take off and do some plowing before it gets too late....besides, the wood stove is likely out too and I'd like to clean it out, brush the chimeny and crank it up again so the cabin is toasty again tonight.

Ahhhh life off the grid (sorta since I do have a phone after all, and TV).

Quote from: OlJarhead on November 07, 2013, 03:55:51 PM
that the heater is basically an 'open flame' and

If you are using the heater I think you are using... Housewarmer 8000 BTU, the flame is enclosed in the burner assembly. The inside of the burner assembly connects only to the exterior via the concentric inlet and outlet tubes. That is what makes it direct vent and what makes it safer for the people in a home than any non vented heater.  IF you have some other non vented heater everything above is still true; just would not apply here. I may have lost track of what was/is going on.

"Perhaps if I insulate it really well with R10 foam then maybe the batteries won't drop to freezing"

remember insulation only slows the transfer of heat- It does not stop it even if its 20" thick eventually the temp inside is the same as outside if there's no heat within.

Like returning to an unheated cabin after a week...every thing inside is the same temp as outside if there's no heating from the sun and radiant heat

if you have for example a 100watt old style bulb and 20" insulation yep it will keep warm inside,

even the charging process makes batteries warm, well insulated I think you'd easily keep the diurnal temperatures above freezing within the enclosure, you have a large warm mass of batteries.

Something like this would give you a clear idea of whats happening inside your enclosure
, set the rate- every 5 mins would be fine- leave logging and then watch the diurnal change
5 mins would get you 55 days of logging !

http://www.amazon.com/Lascar-EL-USB-1-Temperature-Logger-Interface/dp/B00074UZ4A/ref=pd_cp_pc_0

Does your charge controller not have a battery  temperature input ?

I hope the big brown truck of happiness got to you and you made it back up the hill...  I totally spaced on a heat lamp - sounds like a great solution.

Quote from: MountainDon on November 07, 2013, 05:26:50 PM
If you are using the heater I think you are using... Housewarmer 8000 BTU, the flame is enclosed in the burner assembly. The inside of the burner assembly connects only to the exterior via the concentric inlet and outlet tubes. That is what makes it direct vent and what makes it safer for the people in a home than any non vented heater.  IF you have some other non vented heater everything above is still true; just would not apply here. I may have lost track of what was/is going on.

You are correct.

Maybe I need to take a closer look at this heater as I hadn't realized it was enclosed and the flame wasn't 'open' - if that's the case then I should be ok thought he Marey instant on hot water heater might be an issue...but then it may also be enclosed.

Brown truck arrived early - took off and found I had less snow then I expected so I cranked up the tractor (after topping off the tank with Diesel which I had neglected earlier) and pulled out the chimney brush to clean the chimney while the tractor warmed up.

I was surprised to see how much creosote had built up in the chimney and glad I cleaned it out.  I then cleaned out the stove and as it was nice and warm still (and inside the cabin) I lit another fire and headed out to plow the driveway section that most concerns me.  That done I gathered up a load of wood after starting the generator and headed in to finish making dinner which I'd started earlier by placing it in the oven to warm (it takes a while so I had time to make some rice since the generator was running now).

Didn't bother with the batteries yet but will soon (like this weekend).  With luck I can get my grounds sorted, install the 4 new batteries and get the back up generator working correctly.

Cabin Life: Ahhh Cabin life in the winter! Seems I will likely have a simple routine of arriving home, restarting the wood stove, plowing the driveway, bringing in wood and kindling and then starting dinner. It's not too bad really,as it keeps me busy and once I settle down if I'm no longer busy then I have time to think about my family back home so keeping busy helps prevent loneliness!

It can get lonely at times but I'm thinking that's when I need a good book to read since TV mostly isn't worth watching (or spending the money on watching since power isn't cheap in the winter when the sun isn't up long enough to make much and you have to run the generator to charge up the battery bank).

One odd thing I find occurring is that my water doesn't always work on all taps. I'm sure it's air in the lines but am uncertain how to force it out. This morning, for example, the bathroom sink had plenty of pressure but he shower did not. I ran the shower and had to turn on the bathroom sink hot water to a trickle to get the hot water heater to kick on, then after a couple minutes the air came out of that line and the pressure at the shower was great, but only on the hot. I then messed with the cold until it was working but later, in the shower the cold stopped again...grrrrr.....I'll fix it sooner or later but it poses a challenge!

Last nights dinner was great though I had warmed up the roast and gravy in the oven while plowing the snow and when I got back, since I was on generator power I used my rice cooker to make a bunch of rice (two batches). Now I can take some for lunch and try to get back on my diet as well as have more for dinner each night. But I need to start watching what I eat as it's easy to overeat out here I think!

For the start of 'The Big Day' (I'm calling it that since it's the day I add 4 batteries to the bank and try to get the generator wired up right and working correctly as well as install the 2nd heater etc etc) I was greeted with 24 degrees an overcast sky's (it may snow) but the temp has risen to 29 degrees since then and I'm hopeful I might even see temps in the high 30's or low 40's by afternoon which is common here.

So it's off to the races for me!  Wish me luck!

While I smacked myself in the foot (near the ankle) with a hammer while driving a ground rod in I was able to get the rod over 7 feet into the ground at a 45 degree angle before it just stopped and would go no further.  At that point I dug a hole and bent it into the hole and tied the cooper round wire I'd run from the Midnight Solar breaker box ground which I'd previously tied into the Midnight Solar DC panel ground where everything else is grounded to,  That being done (and well over due it was) I set to getting the batteries I was adding installed.  They were near the same voltage as the bank when I added them (after making copper tie bars etc and a platform to put them on) so I'm thinking it was a good time to add them. 

As I was putting the new batteries in front of the original bank which would make it more difficult to reach the DC panel etc I decided to add the shunt and wiring for the Tri-Metric battery monitor.  This meant once the new bank was installed I was able to hook up and program the monitor.

Next up is the generator but my batteries needed to be charged as well as my drill batteries so I took a break to eat lunch (at 3pm no less) and get things charged.  Lunch done (and my foot pretty sore) I think I'll pop some Ibuprofin and go down and see Jeff and Tammy at the store and get a treat, then I'll get back and see about cleaning up the place.

"While I smacked myself in the foot (near the ankle) with a hammer while driving a ground rod in I was able to get the rod over 7 feet into the ground at a 45 degree angle before it just stopped and would go no further."

The first scar I got on this property was nailing my shin with a fence post driver while sinking the ground rod for the telephone guy. Never let them see you sweat, but the air sure turned blue when he left. 

Quote from: considerations on November 09, 2013, 08:08:46 PM
"While I smacked myself in the foot (near the ankle) with a hammer while driving a ground rod in I was able to get the rod over 7 feet into the ground at a 45 degree angle before it just stopped and would go no further."

The first scar I got on this property was nailing my shin with a fence post driver while sinking the ground rod for the telephone guy. Never let them see you sweat, but the air sure turned blue when he left. 

Luckily know one was around to hear this Marine cussin' and swearin'!

Ground road -- bent the last 10 inches down into the ground as I couldn't drive it any deeper.  Then attached the ground cable and buried it all.


You can see where the ground goes here.  Runs into the Midnight solar box and ground bus bar.  Then I run a ground from there into the main breaker panels bus and tie my inverter and charge controller grounds to that bus.  Imagine, I never had a ground for the last three years!  I KNOW this isn't good but I just never got it installed as the last rod never made it down more then 5 feet (I need to pull it out with my tractor).


Buried.  I still need to extend the conduit from the solar panels up into the box but that will wait for another day.  Hopefully not year though!


New batteries installed and charged up.  This gives me 660AH at 24v (compared to my old 12v system of 880AH this would be 1320AH with the 4 additional batteries)


New Inverter/Charger.  It's an 24v AIMS 4000watt Pure Sine Inverter with a 1000watt charger and the option to run it in Battery Mode which will always inverter from the batteries or 'Shore Power' mode which will switch to the Generator supplied power while charging the batteries and then remain on generator power with the battery charger in float until the generator shuts down.  I prefer this mode as it means I can run the generator for longer periods for various reasons without drawing off the batteries.  Then when I shut down the generator it kicks over to Inverter mode.  It also has a 'sleep' mode which sends out a pulse of power every so many seconds and continues until something kicks on and needs power, then it runs until the item kicks off.  This is helpful when I am away as it will just sleep until the freezer or refrigerator comes on then powers them and goes back to sleep conserving power.


Started charging off the inverter with the generator running and dialled in the inverter to about 85% charging capacity.  What's showing is watts (positive) during bulk phase of charging. It' s interesting how sensitive the charger settings are but I was able to dial it in to roughly what I think would be good for this bank based on the solar calculator's suggestion on how many panels I'd need using my 205watt panels.  It tells me 4 so I dialled in the inverter to run about that much power.  What was also interesting was watching the inverter/charging dial up the charge from start and then back off in steps as it went through bulk to absorption and then float.


TriMetric monitor showing 101% of charge after running the generator and charging from the Inverter for a couple hours.

Fixed the cold water in the shower!   Turns out the valve was just stuck out a little and a slight push inward on the nearly 100 year old tap and it worked!  Oh how awesome it is!  I can now take a shower with the hot and cold on at the same time and with LOTS of pressure!  Oh yes!  It's the little things folks

I also noticed that after two hours of running without the generator the battery bank is still at 98% capacity which is great since I've been running my modem and wireless router while charging up my laptop battery and with the TV and DVR plugged in but not on.  I'm kinda stoked that the new batteries are making that much difference!  I'm really hoping to cut generator use in the winter to no more then two hours a day and with the charger set at about 85% it seems to only take a couple hours to recharge the bank.  I also saw the solar charge controller working on the bank at the same time as the generator (it is supposed to do that but without the monitor I couldn't be sure it was without logging in and seeing it do so which I hadn't done during daytime before).

If I get the generator autoswitch working tomorrow then I'll really be set!!!  I could then concentrate on insulating the pipes under the cabin and getting the new room ready for the batteries.

On that subject I learned that the heater I'm installing is NOT an open flame heater so it will be safe to have in the same room as the batteries though I'll enclose them and add a vent fan and switch to exhaust the hydrogen they make when bulk charging and equalizing.

At this point, if I get the generator and heater finished then I can relax a bit and won't worry on my weekends home to see my beautiful wife   I will also then be able to start putting up firewood for the winter so I won't run out and finally, once all that's done I can start using my time on weekends to make panelling and finish the interior.

It seems things are staring to work to plan

Last night I posed a question in the Off Grid thread about my meter showing 94% of capacity in the battery bank yet the voltage was 24.4v.

I then sorta answered the question (to myself) when I went and realized the freezer was running.  I waited for it to stop and saw the voltage increase to 24.6, then when I shut everything down for the night and put the inverter into 'sleep' mode I saw the volts jump to 24.7 (and perhaps they went higher as I didn't stay to watch).

Then I realized Trojans table says 'open voltage' which I take to mean no loads attached to the batteries which is not a state I'll be in, the TriMetric meter on the other hand looks at capacity (that you've programmed) as well as charge volts and amps and perhaps more data and then uses a scientific algorithm to calculate capacity remaining.

So with that in mind I looked at the meter this morning and it showed 89% (very stoked to see that) and a voltage of 24.6v when I kicked the inverter out of sleep mode.

All I can say is 'whoohoo'!  I think the new battery addition made a big difference! 

Nw that I've swept off the solar panels (snow) I should be able to get some production this morning which ought to keep the bank around 89% until either I get full sun (it's snowing so I doubt that will happen) or I run the genny for a couple hours.

Contemplating 'state of charge' stuff and wondering where I can find specs on my batteries.  I've search a ton and can't seem to get what I need.

When I bought the first 8 batteries, which are labelled exactly like the ones I just added (4 more) the label in Costco said "220AH" but reading MountainDon's post has me wondering

It would seem to me that the two things I need the most, in order of importance:

1.  The actual manufacturer's specs and charging information for the batteries.
2.  The correct AH rating of the batteries.

With those I can be sure my TriMetric is actually programmed appropriately.

At last check they were still at 24.5v and the TriMetric had changed to 87% of charge (which I found interesting since it changed from 94% to this with little change in the battery voltage (so that makes me think maybe it knows best! lol).

Golf cart batteries range from 210 to 225; at least that is what I have noticed. The only ones I have seen any charge info for are the Trojans.


I don't have personal experience with operating the Trimetric, but their info is only as good as what is entered. I don't know if it getd motre difficult when starting with used batteries and a new meter setup. 

Quote from: MountainDon on November 10, 2013, 03:06:02 PM
Golf cart batteries range from 210 to 225; at least that is what I have noticed. The only ones I have seen any charge info for are the Trojans.


I don't have personal experience with operating the Trimetric, but their info is only as good as what is entered. I don't know if it getd motre difficult when starting with used batteries and a new meter setup. 

Thanks Don and goo points as always (Note to all reading this:  Don has NEVER steered me wrong and frankly, he Redoverfarm, Gary and others have been generous with their assistance!)

I noticed this morning that often the voltage would change a little down but the meter simply remained reading a steady percentage, then I'd see the voltage come back up and realized somethin was cycling.  I think the meter is just smarter then me! lol

Meanwhile I HAVE SUCCESS!!!!  THe Magnum Auto generator start switch is working!!!  .  It was just the battery ground which I suspect forces the fuel solenoid to polarize with the battery bank thus giving positive voltage!  I was so excited to see it actually work right and set it to 24v for good measure.

IT will only come on once the voltage drops to or below 24v or a full two minutes then it will come on and I set it for 3 hours to make sure the bank is fully charged (I plan to watch it).  Of course, despite the clouds and rain (sometimes snow) the batteries have received some solar charging and so the bank has remained above 24v but I'm now using it a little more with the internet, lights etc and, wait for it....THE RADIO!

Yes I also wired up the 24v to 12v converter and now have radio and the composter fan  

Haven't hooked up the new heater yet but frankly I wanted a break after the last 5 1/2 hrs of steady work as I started my day plowing snow for an hour then set to working on the power.  I also got rid of the temp wiring to the generator (old 120v plug stolen from a washing machine years ago for use with the old inverter).  SO now I have romex going all the way to the genny.  THough it's also temp since I plan to move everything I at least feel better about it.

The generator auto started at 2:13pm with the battery bank at 24.1vdc and under a load (by me).

Now I'll watch it and see when it stops and if it fully charges the bank in under three hours.  I'm hoping it's done around 2 hours as I can then set the switch to give me two hours of charging which will fit my propane budget a little better.