review floorplan

[MarkAndDebbie]

We finally decided on the 20x30 one and a half story. Would y'all look at the floorplan and tell us if you see anything wrong with it. We are dealing with code so the stair should be a full code stair (that was the hardest part to fit in). 10 foot walls. 2x6 decking in the half loft on top of doubled 2x12 joists (I liked this look - http://www.countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1146888141/16#16). I didn't know how to represent the pocket doors - but those lines in the walls are pocket doors. I am trying to keep it simple - no dormers etc.

Thanks for looking!

[John Raabe]

If you can find 5' between the two kitchen counters you will have room for a 36" sink and 1' on each side to install a lazy susan for full access to the corner storage.

Strict code interpretation of stair may require the winders to be wider at the landing. See: page 6 of http://www.stairways.org/pdf/2003%20Stair%20IRC%20SCREEN.pdf

Plumbing is compact.

[MarkAndDebbie]

The thought on the kitchen was to have the stove on the outside wall (possibly wall venting hood). The cabinet to the right of the stove would open from the back or table side. A lazy susan on the left is a great idea. I am worried about the winder section. moving treads 1 and 2 to the right will put tread 2 under the floor joist - making it not have enough headroom (7'6" - ~15" < 6'8"). So I may have to move another step above the bedroom door. I'll have to look at it.

Thanks!

PS that's code headroom - I'm the tall one in the family at 5'5.

[cfabien]

What code are you required to meet? In my neck of the wood we're using locally modified version of the 2003 IRC. If that's the code you're under, your stairs will not meet code.

You cannot use a winder stair where the treads come to a point. The treads must be 6" wide at their narrowest, and min 10" wide at the "walk line" which is 12" in from the narrow end. These requirements basically eliminate the benefit of using a winder instead of a 36" landing.

You also don't show the rise/run of the stairs but for the 2003 IRC you must have min. 10" tread and max 7 3/4" rise. This makes for a pretty shallow stair. I think if you do the calculations you'll find that you are steeper than allowed.

The project I'm workign on right now is remodeling my attic in my 22x28 1951 bungalow into a master suite, and the stairs have proven to be by far the biggest challenge. With the current codes it's just very difficult to get a code compliant staircase into a small house, particularly one that's already existing. You have the benefit of starting from scratch.

If that dashed line is a beam, you're going to have to avoid it. I might look into putting a straight stair along the bottom wall of the plan, or putting a stair like you drew with a flat landing to the right of the beam, and put the exterior door to the left of the beam.

This PDF gives an excellent overview of the 2003 IRC stair requirements: http://www.stairways.org/pdf/2006%20Stair%20IRC%20SCREEN.pdf

BTW I've been lurking for a while, this is my first post on the board!

[MarkAndDebbie]

What code are you required to meet? In my neck of the wood we're using locally modified version of the 2003 IRC. If that's the code you're under, your stairs will not meet code.

Supposedly, CABO 1995.

You cannot use a winder stair where the treads come to a point. The treads must be 6" wide at their narrowest, and min 10" wide at the "walk line" which is 12" in from the narrow end. These requirements basically eliminate the benefit of using a winder instead of a 36" landing.

I'll have to confirm, but I think I can do 9" treads (which might imply 9" winders.)

You also don't show the rise/run of the stairs but for the 2003 IRC you must have min. 10" tread and max 7 3/4" rise. This makes for a pretty shallow stair. I think if you do the calculations you'll find that you are steeper than allowed.

With a 7'6" ceiling + 11.5 loft joist + 1.5" loft decking = 8'7" = 103"
103/14 risers (13 treads) = ~7.357 = 7'5"

The project I'm workign on right now is remodeling my attic in my 22x28 1951 bungalow into a master suite, and the stairs have proven to be by far the biggest challenge. With the current codes it's just very difficult to get a code compliant staircase into a small house, particularly one that's already existing. You have the benefit of starting from scratch.

If that dashed line is a beam, you're going to have to avoid it. I might look into putting a straight stair along the bottom wall of the plan, or putting a stair like you drew with a flat landing to the right of the beam, and put the exterior door to the left of the beam.

I think I only need 6'8= 80" headroom. So if the beam is at 7'6"=90, first step is at 90-7.5=82.5" > 80". So I think one tread can be under the beam - right?

This PDF gives an excellent overview of the 2003 IRC stair requirements: http://www.stairways.org/pdf/2006%20Stair%20IRC%20SCREEN.pdf

Thanks to you and John for the link. It does seem to negate most of the benefit of winders (even 9" ones). It looks like what they want is for me to continue that arc at 12" back to the focus of the circle, then use equal arcs to create equal tread depth in the walking path (that's not what it says - that's just what it appears they were going for). By my math it looks like that would be 24" from the inside (6") edge. That makes the circle 36".
9/36= .25
inverse tan(.25) ~ 14 deg
90/14 ~ 6 treads to turn 90deg.
So with 9" treads I would have to have 5' on my outside wall to turn, but I only have 49.5"(between the beams if placed on the outside of the joists - it looks like you do that right John?) + 6" (first tread under beam OK). 55.5" < 60" so no 9" code winder.

I thought I had already done the algebra, I should do the 10" for anybody in that situation.
circle to walkline = 30"
~18.4 deg
~4.88 treads
54" on outside wall of winders
54-6 = 48
So unknowingly, I found a 4 winder 10" that will fit inside the 49.5 inches. But, it doesn't help me much, because I have to remove the two bottom treads and add 18 inches to the long run (equivalent to two 9" treads).

So that puts me at a landing where the winders are and adding two treads at the top.

The new question is ... how far is it from the top of the tread to the bottom of the (sorry I don't know the term) the part on which the tread is supported. I know at least one tread could be above my bedroom door. I wonder about two?

As for running the stairs the other way, I'd have to put them in the middle of the room or add a dormer. I'd also have to figure out how to keep my headroom close to the collar tie (it might work - I haven't added it).

Somebody check my math ?

BTW I've been lurking for a while, this is my first post on the board!

Welcome to the board!
[/quote]

[Freeholdfarm]

I don't know where you are, but in a cold climate, it would be easier to heat your house with that woodstove if it was in the center of the house rather than on an outside wall.  If you in a warm climate it probably doesn't really matter where you put it.

Kathleen

[MarkAndDebbie]

I don't know where you are, but in a cold climate, it would be easier to heat your house with that woodstove if it was in the center of the house rather than on an outside wall.  If you in a warm climate it probably doesn't really matter where you put it.

Kathleen

Georgia - warm compared to most of the US. I'll ask my wife what she thinks about centering it more. Thanks.

[cfabien]

With a 7'6" ceiling + 11.5 loft joist + 1.5" loft decking = 8'7" = 103"
103/14 risers (13 treads) = ~7.357 = 7'5"

Looks Correct to me.

I think I only need 6'8= 80" headroom. So if the beam is at 7'6"=90, first step is at 90-7.5=82.5" > 80". So I think one tread can be under the beam - right?  

Right, but remember that the headroom will be measured from a straight line along the nose of the risers, so as shown in your picture, the beam can't be right to the back end of the first riser, the back of the riser will have to be farther back than the back of the beam.

As for the winders, I didn't calculate a curved winder section because of the difficulty of construction, but I did draw out a 3-step winder with the center riser at a 45 degree angle. I don't recall the exact measurements but I think it cost me about 2" more run than a landing did.

[John Raabe]

I would check on the assumption of a full code stair in such a situation where you have a small loft room overlooking an open ceiling area. In many code areas such a loft would not trigger the requirement of a full sized stairway.

You are very close with the exception of the path of the winder. That new requirement makes the winder stair much more problematic. However, I do understand the goal, and it is a good one - to make each tread in the walking path have the same width. I'm sure there have been spills coming down the stair and encountering a narrower winder tread.

[MarkAndDebbie]

Right, but remember that the headroom will be measured from a straight line along the nose of the risers, so as shown in your picture, the beam can't be right to the back end of the first riser, the back of the riser will have to be farther back than the back of the beam.

Dotted line is not quite in the right place... It should be OK with a 36" landing + 9" tread (tread #2) = 45" and if I put the beams on the outside of the both studs it gives me 49.5 (minus the beadboard at the wall? Or maybe the beadboard will be 'under' the joist?).

I'll do this properly in Sketchup and post it here. I'll also check with the inspector - I'm getting a list of questions.

Does anyone know when the winder code (CABO / IRC) was changed to include the 6" small dimension on the inside? The 2003 certainly has it.

Our backup plan is to have a storage loft (the inspector lingo seems to be 'plant shelf' ) without a ladder or stairs. Then, some time afterwards, to put in a safe non-code stair.

[John Raabe]

Stair Notes (UBC) (this is my normal stair spec.)
- Max rise of 8", Min. run of 9", Max variation 3/8"
- Min. width 36" clear
- Min. headroom 6'- 8" above slope of treads
- Framing from 3 2x12 stringers notched over 2x6 cleats top & bottom (alt metal brackets)
- Treads 5/4 composite hardboard or equal, risers 3/4 stock.
- Storage under stair protected with 5/8" type X GWB taped airtight.
- Handrails needed for stairs of 4 or more risers.
- Handrails to be 1-1/2" dia. 36" above nosing w/ return to newl post or wall.
- Stair sidewalls to be Min. 36" high w/ 1x6 cap, GWB @ exposed sides.
- Stairs (code) not needed for under 200sf lofts. Btwn 200 to 400 spiral stair can be used.

New IRC 2003 code stairs (differences):
- Max rise of 7- 3/4", Min run 10",
- Winders min 6" at inside corner and 10" at walk line 12" inward.