16 x 28 in Athens, VT

cabinfever · April 21, 2009, 06:13:41 PM

Hi all,

Last October my wife and I ran across a 3-acre parcel in Vermont that struck us as perfect, and we bought it. Her fantasy is a getaway place in our favorite part of the country; mine added the idea of owning a place outright, preferably off the grid. Building it myself wasn't necessarily part of the dream, but the economy tanking has made that a necessity.

I picked up the Builder's Cottage plans, but decided that 14 x 24 was too small. 16 x 28 wasn't much bigger, but - on paper anyway - gave us a little more breathing room. Two things I absolutely hate to do, however, is digging in root-infested, rocky New England soil and working with concrete, so I hired out the land clearing (which is done), the excavating, and the pouring of a frost wall foundation with a rat slab. This means I'm going to have a budget of about $14k to build the place, septic excluded. Probably well, too, as I understand I'm going to have to go down almost 300' where I am.

So, anyway, the foundation will be done by June 1, and then I've got to have the shell up by the fall if I don't want water freezing in it. Aside from having very little building experience, power will probably have to come from a generator and I live 3 hours away in Connecticut. Should be fun.

I'm currently building an 8 x 10 gardening shed in the back yard as a proof-of-concept (and to assure the wife I'm not completely out of my mind), and I'm beginning to make detailed plans for the real thing this summer. I'm sure I'll have lots of questions, and thank you all in advance for any advice you can offer.

My first question: Insurance. I'm having a devil of a time even getting builder's insurance because I'm doing it myself. Was everyone here able to get insurance, or did you thow caution to the wind and do without? I have nightmare visions of going bankrupt because some well-meaning friend or relative falls off the roof and needs 6 back surgeries, or (less troublesome) the locals decide to wait 'till I'm gone to pilfer my supplies.

I'll get some pics up soon - just haven't researched how to do it yet. I've got a blog on the project that I started at www.newenglandcabin.blogspot.com, although I might shut it down if I find I'm posting here more.

ScottA · April 21, 2009, 06:48:33 PM

Sounds like a good project. I didn't have any problems buying insurance. We just added it to our homeowners policy. 1 year of insurance was $360. Take pics as you go and keep all your recipts just incase you have a claim you can prove your progress.

cabinfever · April 22, 2009, 10:59:37 AM

That's the problem, pagancelt - I'm a bit type-A. If there is something to worry about, I'll find it. Apparently the sticking points are that a) I'm building it myself, b) I don't live in the state it's being built in, and c) it won't be a full-time resident. The underwriters are concerned about injuries to inexperienced helpers, the length of time it might be incomplete, and the break-in risk once it's done.

I spoke to someone else this morning who suggested that we could probably get construction insurance at first, followed by a policy for a barn or shed while the utilities are not hooked up, and then a homeowner's policy once they are. He suggested that part of my problems may be that I'm offering too much information. I've seen that advice here before: Only answer what they ask, and offer nothing further. He's going to do some digging and get back to me in a few days.

I just want to be insured against two things: Personal Injury Liability and the cost of my materials. If the place is hit by lightning and burns, I don't know where I'm going to get another $15k...

pagan · April 22, 2009, 11:24:18 AM

It takes a lot to let go of Type-A traits.

One option is to take all tools with you when you leave, which can get to be a pain in the arse, so to speak. When it's finished, well, then you're on another level.

I worked with a guy whose father owned a hunting camp in Maine. Every year it would be broken into and trashed no matter what he did to lock it up. Nothing was ever stolen, it was just trashed. Another man who owned a camp nearby told him it's done by local teenagers. He was advised to at the end of the camping season leave his camp unlocked with a case of cheap beer and a bag of Doritos on the table. He did it and the next spring he discovered the items were gone, but nothing was damaged. He did this every year and always had the same result. One year he went back to discover the items had not been taken and assumed the kids had moved away. He never had any further problems. I'm not recommending this, I'm just saying that whatever you do to lock it up if someone really wants to get in, he or she will.

My advice would be having nothing of real value in there, and take home anything you don't want stolen. Personally I've never locked my tool shed and often leave the house unlocked if I run into town for an hour or two. I do it more to keep breaking away at the Type-A stuff then any long standing habit or trust in human nature.

You can also get to know a few locals and ask them to check on it from time to time and let you know how everything is. Having tire tracks running in and out tends to keep people from investigating what's going on with your place.

As far as insurance, well, I can't really offer any help there.

By the way, I'm a north of Athens near Brookfield.

April 23, 2009, 05:27:11 AM

Nice to see there's someone else from Vermont here! Don't know what it was like building in Brookfield, but Athens is a libertarian paradise - if you have a state septic permit, they don't care what you build. No permitting, no building inspector, nothing! Quite the change from where I live now.

Another question for everyone (or maybe John): In the 16 x 28 plans, 2 x 10 floor joists @ 16" oc are called for to span the entire 16'. In the framing book that's recommended on this site, however, the span table seem to indicate that only one type of 2 x 10 is good for this span, and even then only just. Does anyone have experience with this setup? Are the floors likely to be spongy? I'm trying to decide if I should put in a beam or not.

pagan · April 23, 2009, 06:38:06 AM

No codes or zones with me, either. The only things you need a permit for in my town are septic and driveway. Makes it real easy to do what you want.

John Raabe · April 23, 2009, 09:53:06 AM

According to my span book for main floor loads a Doug Fir-Larch #2 grade 2x10 will span 15'-7" when spaced 16" o/c. For Southern Pine #2 the span would be 16'-1". The actual working span of a 16' wide building with 2x6 sills is more like 15' so either of these should be fine. Most people will be perfectly comfortable with the floor deflection as calculated in these span tables. If you want a floor that has the rebound of a concrete slab you can either go to 12" spacing or a centerline beam.

See this free article at our sister site for more info and another span calculator : http://www.planhelp.com/public/98.cfm

cabinfever · April 23, 2009, 10:34:20 AM

Thanks, John - I didn't stop to think about the fact that the walls will shorten the unsuppored distance.

pagancelt - I have you beat by 1: My excavator is also the town road warden, and he told me no driveway permit was needed either.

April 23, 2009, 12:27:41 PM

All depending, this is some real "type A" stuff to ponder

;
A typically available SPF #2 joist in 2x10 with a span of 180" and typical "real world" 7 psf loading will have a vibration frequency under 15 Hz. In testing this is considered objectionable by many people. In a stiffer species like DF it goes just above 15 Hz.
An SPF 2x12 will resonate at very close to 20 Hz, in dougfir around 21 cycles.

Putting in a double 2x10 midbeam supported at 7' intervals and dropping to 2x8 joists in SPF yields about 22 Hz.

This is all assuming a perimeter foundation, pier and beam will have a much lower frequency.

The 2x10 spf at 16' will deflect .58", about 9/16", under full design load.
The 2x8 spf at 8', bearing on a midbeam, will deflect .075", about 1/16", under the same load.

MountainDon · April 23, 2009, 01:10:12 PM

Don_P, the frequency stuff is quite interesting. I just don't know how to relate this to what I experience in the real world.

I have a cabin floor with 2x10 Hem-Fir joists, 16" OC. It's approx. 13' 6" between joists; that's the actual span between beams. To me it's a very stiff floor. What I'm used to at home is a concrete slab, so that's my basis. How does the frequency of my cabin floor compare to the one discussed above?

Thanks for your time.

bayview · April 23, 2009, 02:51:22 PM

Quote from: pagancelt on April 22, 2009, 07:53:58 AM
Try not to worry so much.

We didn't have any insurance for several years, mostly because nobody would insure us, wood heat only, no electric, no running water or septic. We went through an insurance coop.

Our bank calls our house a "non-conforming property." Our mortgage is on the land only, but if we wanted to get a "traditional" mortgage, we'd have to: hook up to the grid, we have a solar electric system now, drill a well and plumb the house, install a septic system, and have thermostatically controlled heat. We're not going that route.

Conform . . .Conform . . .Conform . . .Whats the matter with you? Conform . . .

Honestly, I think what you have done is great . . . Self reliance = Freedom

pagan · April 23, 2009, 02:53:58 PM

That's just it, bayviewps, the system forces people to conform.

Don_P · April 23, 2009, 05:28:09 PM

The "system" is us

.

MD,
Floors are sort of unique in that we typically don't design them by strength but by stiffness. The limiting factor in most floor design is not bending strength or shear but deflection. The original deflection specification that appears as the code minimum is L/360. If a floor spanned 360" it would be allowed to sag 1" under full design load. This standard was initially to prevent plaster cracks in ceilings under a second floor. The use of 30 psf for "sleeping rooms" dates back at least 40 years. This predates our current lifestyles, waterbeds, mountains of stuff in a home, thinset tile, etc. Length/360 is a comfortably stiff floor in shorter spans, as they get longer it can become annoying. A sure recipe for dissapointment is to design for 30 psf, L/360 on a span greater than about 15'. One simple design rule of thumb that came out of this research was that using 40 psf Live Load and designing for L/480 (25% less deflection than L/360) on the joists almost always works. The extreme example given in class was a 2X10 SPF 30psf floor framed 12" oc and spanning the maximum allowable 19'. The floor passes code but the vibration frequency would be 9 Hz, right in the middle of the most annoying range.

The floor frequency check is a way of looking at how a floor performs. In testing researchers found that people are very sensitive to vibrations in the 8-10 Hz range (I've read that this is the range of frequencies for functions in our bodies). They found that most people were comfortable if the floor vibrations were above 15 Hz. I'm not that finely tuned, what drives me nuts is to hear stuff rattling when someone walks across the floor. I'm not really happy with our 2x10 SPF floors that have roughly the same span as yours, my wife doesn't notice them. They check out right at 15 Hz so the average person, whatever that is, should be happy with them.

I've built long spans of 24'+ in a single lightweight engineered span , deflection of L/480+ a few times. In one case the customer complained, I hated the floor. In that case we had a very high vibration frequency but very little mass, it was too easy to get that snare drum vibrating. Having studied this some we added another layer of subfloor and screwed it on 8" centers in every direction. One of two things happened either the floor was made stiffer or we added enough mass to make it harder to excite.

To me that all gets pretty deep, the easy solution is to quit trying to span so far and don't push the limits with longer spans. Under a building its easy to break long spans in half, 1st to second floor requires some thoughtful placement of load bearing walls rather than a clear span building that can be cut up many ways. A stiff floor will still not feel like concrete underfoot until you get way out there.

One of our outbuildings is a pier and beam 24x24 story and a half gambrel barn. Its divided by a midbeam at 12' and has full cut 2x8 joists. I built it to dry flowers and then moved all my toys in, quite literally tons of it, the 35 Dodge, a coupla spare engines, tools etc. Around Christmas the dogs came bounding in while I was standing there. I tiptoed us all out of the building. I knew the joists were fine but my girders were too wimpy. The frequency was low and the deflection deep, it was in danger. I beefed the upper floor by adding 2-2x12 hickory plies to the girder and under the main floor I dug and installed another post under each girder, breaking their spans in half. There's a '56 in pretty nice shape calling me. Everyone is different so YMMV

April 23, 2009, 05:41:04 PM

Lots of good info, Don_P. I'm having pockets put in for a built-up 2x10 beam, just to keep my options open. Sounds like I might ought to use it just to be safe. I'm going to have a loft on either end, so the beam would also help in dividing them similarly.

bayviewps - I made the same comment to the wife yesterday. You start out dreaming of something 'alternative' but the system (in this case, insurance) puts pressure on you to conform. Like I said before, though - this is the one time in my life I expect to have this money to spend, so if the place burns for some reason I'll be living in a tent for the rest of my days. Makes me think twice.

Kevin · April 23, 2009, 07:40:07 PM

Try this for insuance. They deel with this stuff all the time.
http://www.co-opinsurance.com/index.html
They work in vermont and NH.

You might want to think about putting up a gate. People love to
raid cabins when no one is home. Learn it the hard way.
Kevin

MountainDon · April 23, 2009, 09:51:17 PM

I agree on the gate with a lock and with posting no trespassing signs. Mostly all they do is keep the already honest folks honest.

But they're also good to have from a legal standpoint if or when somebody does trespass.

cabinfever · April 24, 2009, 05:30:12 AM

Thanks for the suggestion, Kevin - I'll give them a call today.

Agree with both of you on the gate and the signs. Signs will go up next time I'm there, and the gate after we've finalized the size and location of the driveway.

The town roads are all posted against heavy loads until May 15th, so the foundation won't be poured until then. I'm switching into planning mode while I wait.

pagan · April 24, 2009, 06:53:43 AM

I am not the system. What was the line from "The Prisoner?" "I will not be numbered, filed, stamped, briefed, or debriefed. My life is my own." Something along those lines.

That's the insurance we have, actually they were the only ones who would insure us because we do not conform to the system.

The other thing you can do, cabin, is have your place a little ways from the driveway and parking area. If people have to walk a ways to get to your place they might not bother.

cabinfever · April 24, 2009, 12:51:30 PM

pagan - We've got a triangle of land between two road, and - given the location of the septic - there really is no way to get away from the driveway. On the plus side, we're within clear view of the closest neighbor, which hopefully will discourage undesirables.

cabinfever · April 28, 2009, 10:45:22 AM

Quote from: Kevin on April 23, 2009, 07:40:07 PM
Try this for insuance. They deel with this stuff all the time.
http://www.co-opinsurance.com/index.html
They work in vermont and NH.

You might want to think about putting up a gate. People love to
raid cabins when no one is home. Learn it the hard way.
Kevin

Kevin: You were right - they were able to get me better converage at half the price of the first agent I tried. I ended up getting construction insurance at $20k with $300k in liability and fire/lightning/vandalism on the completed shell at $60k. Not going to be putting in electric or water this year, or finishing the interior, so this should be good.

dmlsr · May 06, 2009, 07:59:04 AM

please post pic's

considerations · May 08, 2009, 09:22:45 AM

yes, yes please post some pictures.....they keep us all motivated!

Kevin · May 09, 2009, 07:46:27 AM

Glad that the agent could help you. If you don't mind can you tell us what there charging?
I'm going to get some insurance shortly with them.
Kevin