The Middle East.......

[Carla_M]

---- that is my fault and I will stop.

Oh Squirl please don't stop. You do seem to have a quick analytical mind, able to cut through the fog and make some very good points.


Unless I am way off base the statement that windpower made regarding the current Ayatollah  "rhetoric from unelected religious cleric ", well that is a big part of the problem. Any country that is run by unelected people is a tyranny of some kind. Mixing religious beliefs, or worse yet using religion as a basis to run your own country and as the basis of attacks against another country is wrong and stupid. I hope I don't offend any churchgoers, but as far as I am concerned too many people have died uselessly in the name of religion over the centuries. Iran is set up to be run, behind the scenes often, by religious fanatics. Elections have only candidates that belong to the one official party. That's a good way to ensure your will is imposed on the citizens.

From NPR:
.....Ayatollah Ali Khamenei..... is Iran's supreme leader, with all the power that the job title suggests. He controls everything from Iran's nuclear program to full authority over foreign policy.
from  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100645236

So if he says he wants to kill Jews, wants to wipe Israel out, why should I not believe him?

Windpower, what would you do if you were in charge of Israel?

[Carla_M]

Oh, and I agree with the statement "the people of Iran are not crazy". It's the religious fanatics like the Ayatollah who holds all the real power who is crazy

[Woodsrule]

The doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction would lead to exactly that in the Middle East. The difference between the USSR and the US was that both nations were not lead by radical religious leaders. You may argue that certain factions ruled, but none espoused the destruction of other folks simply because of their religion. Now, anyone that thinks that the leadership in Iran would not employ nukes against all of their enemies are wishing for the best, but are ignoring the obvious. Saddamn Hussein employed weapons of mass destruction against the Kurds (gas) and would not have hesitated to nuke his enemies. Iran is no different and, even though we will continue to ignore the sleeping nuke giant there, the Israelis will not.

[Carla_M]

The point of learning from the past to avoid repeating errors is extremely valid and important. There is much to be learned from the past. However, if we spend too much time arguing over what happened in the past and whose fault it was, we may not spend enough time analyzing today's situation and even less time planning for tomorrow..

[NM_Shooter]

"The United States of America survived years and years of the cold war with Russia because of the threat of mutual destruction. If either side launched an attack everyone on both sides of the conflict perished."

The same would apply in the ME

IF Iran had nuclear weapons it would keep the Israel in place.  The people of Iran are not insane. They would not 'commit suicide'.

This is precisely the point that you keep missing.  Carla summarized it nicely.  The people of Iran don't have control of that weapon, and Iran will use it offensively. 

[Squirl]

AMD has "worked" with the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. ... sort of.
We have come to the brink of it not working on almost 6 occasions.  That is the end of human life on this planet almost 6 times in the past 70 years.  The more people that have nuclear capabilities, the more times that is tested on a daily basis.  Anything that has a probability greater than 0, the more times you test it, eventually it will occur.

If we could have prevented the Russians from gaining nuclear weapons 70 years ago, we would have been fools to pass up the opportunity.

Also a conventional weapons strike at a specific site has never been met with the threat of invasion or weapons of mass destruction from China or Russia.  We have attacked Iran a few times in the past 30 years (from the links I had posted) and it never even got a peep out of Russia or China.  I also don't see why the discussion should be "We (the U.S.)" and not "They (the Israelis)".  It's their problem, they should handle it.  Neither side has the logistics or capability of a ground war against the other.

I could see how you would fear that things could quickly spiral out of control.  It happened in the 1973 Arab-Israeli War when Israel went to march on Cairo and Damascus.  The Russians threatened to send in their own troops. To which the Americans did the same.  We were raised to Defcon 3 and loaded up the nukes.  It was one of the few times in the last 70 years.  The only time the world was ever closer to destruction was the Cuban missile crisis.

I could see the scenario were this could happen again. 
Israel strikes Iran's nuclear program.
Iran responds with some type of hidden undeclared WMD (chemical?).
Iran becomes a nice quiet neighborhood for the next 70,000 years.
Israel becomes a nice quiet neighborhood for the next 70,000 years.
15 minutes later the U.S. and Russians decide human life had a nice run, and well that's all folks.

But then again the Iranians would have to decide to 'commit suicide' and they are already rational enough not to do that.

[Bob S.]

  The point I am trying to make is that the Ayatolla is running the show, "NOT THE IRANIAN POPULATION AS WHOLE".
   And he is crazy enough to end the world as we know it. He thinks that will bring on the secnd coming and the world will become paradise.

[sparks]

    Thanks to all that particpated in this thread. I locked the voting........probably would have happened anyway. I noticed a trend at the beginning of the poll from no/crazy to a majority of yes. Maybe some folks were waiting until enough discussion was there to support their vote.......maybe not. I'm still sticking with the crazy scenario.

    If Israel makes a pre-emptive strike, she will in all likely do it alone (wink wink, nod nod). And in the following 72 hours, a lot of very big decisions are going to be made..........by people that can make the ultimate last big decisions.

    And I've never met any of them...............................





  sparks

[Carla_M]

Thanks for the topic sparks. It looks like we've all said all that can be said for now.

[Windpower]

More information from recently declasified documents about the USS Liberty incident add more evidence that Israel knew it was an American ship

From that 'wild conspiracy rag' the Chicago Tribune



New revelations in attack on American spy ship
Veterans, documents suggest U.S., Israel didn't tell full story of deadly '67 incident

http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/eedition/chi-liberty_tuesoct02,0,3794785,full.story

Israeli helicopters to the rescue.... NOT




"3:07 p.m. Israeli helicopters sent to rescue Liberty crewman from the sea arrive and "orbit" the heavily damaged vessel.

3:12 p.m. The helicopters' communications with the ground are intercepted by an American aircraft circling high above the scene. One helicopter pilot reports that he sees an American flag flying from the Liberty's mast.

3:16 p.m. An Israeli ground controller orders the helicopters to return to El Arish

Sources: National Security Agency documents, Tribune reporting

Chicago Tribune"




Mainscream Media Iran Hysteria

@2 minutes

Ronald Burgess Director, Defense Intelligence Agency "the agency assesses that Iran is unlikely to initiate or intentionally provoke a conflict"

Leon Panetta, Secretary of Defense "...the intelligence does not show that they have made the decision to go ahead with the developement of a nuclear weapon"

http://rt.com/news/us-mass-media-iran-095/

[Squirl]

3:07 p.m. Israeli helicopters sent to rescue Liberty crewman  from the sea arrive and "orbit" the heavily damaged vessel.

Do you actually read what you post?

The Russian editorial starts off with a false premise.
Since neither the US military nor intelligence believes Iran could strike America, why do the US media whip up hysteria about Iran.  It quotes two individuals to represent the entire U.S. military and intelligence establishment.  I understand there are conflicting views of individuals in defense and intelligence.

Iran has missile armed submarines and as much of the news has reported in the past few days, capability of using terrorist attacks all over the world.  The article touched on these attacks but said "Tel Aviv" blames Iran.  All the governments in which the attacks occurred blame Iran too.

It is amazing that the editorial completely failed to mention one of the current bases for sanctions on Iran. Some people think Iran has already attempted a strike in the U.S by trying to assassinate an Ambassador to the U.S.  As alleged by the Justice Department.
http://www.justice.gov/opa/documents/us-v-arbabsiar-shakuri-complaint.pdf

The U.S. has been in a quasi war with Iran for 40 years.  This is about letting one of our current and long standing enemies have the ability to get nuclear weapons.

[Windpower]

Quote from: Windpower on Yesterday at 04:23:13 AM
3:07 p.m. Israeli helicopters sent to rescue Liberty crewman  from the sea arrive and "orbit" the heavily damaged vessel.

"Do you actually read what you post?"


Well yes, yes I do.

My question is do you read what I have posted ?


3:12 p.m. The helicopters' communications with the ground are intercepted by an American aircraft circling high above the scene. One helicopter pilot reports that he sees an American flag flying from the Liberty's mast.


3:16 p.m. An Israeli ground controller orders the helicopters to return to El Arish


Here Let me help you through this, since you seem to have trouble thinking things through sometimes

Point one: The USS Liberty was FLYING THE AMERICAN FLAG according to one helicopter pilot.

FOUR MINUTES LATER THE HELICOPTERS RETURNED TO BASE

NOT TOO DAMN MUCH RESCUING GOING ON THERE or maybe they chickened out when the crew tuned the 50 BMG (their only armament) on them in self defense

Other witnesses, US NAVY witnesses, said the helicopters were clearly boarding party sent to mop up the survivors thus leaving no witnesses to their despicable attack.



Hope that helps.

[Squirl]

Yes.  I did read what you post.  In the other articles you posted, it stated the Americans refused help. Which is completely understandable after what they had been through.  The article you are even relying on states they were there as a rescue mission.

At no point did it state that they were a boarding party to kill everyone.  You just made that junk up because that is what you want to believe.

Nor does it even make the smallest amount of sense.  They attacked with all their flags flying a RADIO ship.  They had these things called radios.  Even all of the articles in support of your position stated that they were radioing the U.S. that the Israelis were attacking.  So what, nobody knew it was them?  Oh and yeah, they were going to send in a helicopter of troops into harms way instead of the three torpedo ships and multiple jets they had?  If your going to make stuff up, have it make a little sense. 

I love how you made bold the exact nonsensical argument.  Why would they have even bothered to report there was an American flag flying when they came up, if they knew it was an American ship the whole time? 

I love conspiracy theories.  All you need is an agenda then disregard all facts and common sense to get to that agenda.  I'm not going to keep going on about this.  Post whatever you like, I won't keep pointing out what little sense it makes.

[Carla_M]

I am amazed at how far off the original question this continues to be. The original question was a good one, I thought. My simple mind can not fathom what the case of the USS Liberty has anything to do with the OP; "Would it be wise if Israel launched any strike against Iran? " There was a battle going on and as has happened before and will certainly happen again, unfortunate mistakes were made. It must be to muddy the waters and further a theory that to my eyes has no merit. This is entertaining in a way though.

[Windpower]

"Yes.  I did read what you post.  In the other articles you posted, it stated the Americans refused help. Which is completely understandable after what they had been through.  The article you are even relying on states they were there as a rescue mission.

At no point did it state that they were a boarding party to kill everyone.  You just made that junk up because that is what you want to believe."


No, I did not make this up. Eyewitness Navy personel saw the armed men on the helos

Look it up 



"Nor does it even make the smallest amount of sense.  They attacked with all their flags flying a RADIO ship.  They had these things called radios.  Even all of the articles in support of your position stated that they were radioing the U.S. that the Israelis were attacking.  So what, nobody knew it was them?  Oh and yeah, they were going to send in a helicopter of troops into harms way instead of the three torpedo ships and multiple jets they had?  If your going to make stuff up, have it make a little sense. "

If you look at the time line and had facts, you would understand that the helicopters were sent in AFTER the torpedo blew a 39 foot hole in the Liberty. They were dead in the water and listing badly. There was no harm's way at that point as all four  50 cals had been destroyed . And most of the crew were injured or dead.

eta typos

                     

"Why would they have even bothered to report there was an American flag flying when they came up, if they knew it was an American ship the whole time? "

Maybe because these helicopter attackers were surprised their orders were to board the ship and mop up the survivors then sink an American ship.

[Windpower]

This is who wants the ultimate weapon :

http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/ayatollah-kill-all-jews-annihilate-israel/

Did Ayatola Really say Kill all Jews and Annihilate Israel ?

By Keith Johnson

The short answer: Absolutely not!

Part of the long answer comes from Muhammad Sahimi, who recently told Antiwar Radio host Scott Horton that the inflammatory article published by World Net Daily (WND), entitled Ayatollah: Kill all Jews, Annihilate Israel is "totally bogus."

Muhammad Sahimi is a Professor of Chemical Engineering and Materials Science at the University of Southern California (USC). He also frequently writes on Iranian politics for Payvand, the Huffington Post, Antiwar.com and several mainstream news outlets. He has a regular column for the Tehran Bureau of the Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) and is fluent in Farsi.

According to Sahimi, the WND piece by Reza Kahlili is based entirely on an article by Alireza Forghani, who is described by Kahlili as "an analyst and a strategy specialist in [Ayatollah Ali] Khamenei's camp."

However, Kahlili provides no proof of this and expects the reader to take his word for it. In response, Sahimi says that Alireza Forghani is nothing more than an "Iranian blogger" who has "no ties to the Iranian government...no official post anywhere...doesn't even have a job."

more here

http://revoltoftheplebs.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/did-the-ayatollah-really-say-kill-all-jews-annihilate-israel/

[NM_Shooter]

I am amazed at how far off the original question this continues to be.

  Welcome to countryplans thread drift.  Some of us get our panties all wadded up in a hurry any time someone brings up the defense of Israel.  Gee... I wonder why? 

You want to see a really crazy thread?  Do a search on the world trade towers.  Have your seat belt on!

[peternap]

  Welcome to countryplans thread drift.  Some of us get our panties all wadded up in a hurry any time someone brings up the defense of Israel.  Gee... I wonder why? 

You want to see a really crazy thread?  Do a search on the world trade towers.  Have your seat belt on!

Us...Naaaaa