Okay- This is getting ridiculous

MushCreek · July 04, 2012, 12:52:24 PM

I bought a few non-treated 2X12's the other day. I measured one to determine where to put the hanger, and it measure 10-7/8"! What?! OVER an inch undersize? 2X material used to be 1/2" under; then the bigger stuff shrunk to 3/4" under. But this is 1-1/8" under. At what point do building inspectors start rejecting this stuff? I'd hate to build a house and then get dinged for under-sized framing. I'd bring it back, but 1) It's a long drive and a lot of gas. 2) I'm sure they are all small.

CjAl · July 04, 2012, 01:06:57 PM

the 2x12x16 treated i just bought for my beems came and inch and a half over 16'. of course they were so badly cupped i had to double my clamp collection to squeeze them together enough to nail them

July 04, 2012, 06:50:12 PM

I'm curious is quality control going out the window? Even the so called higher grade 2x's and plwood I get from the big box stores is dripping wet and warps and twists so badly that a good portion of it goes back.

CjAl · July 04, 2012, 06:55:20 PM

mine were number 1. the lumber yard is going to hear about it. $700 for 16 boards and five sheets of treated plywood. i think they delivered every board nobody else wanted

Squirl · July 05, 2012, 08:48:46 AM

Much of lumber is based on location. I have been purchasing lumber in PA and NY. The lumber I have access to locally from NY has been twisted, cupped, and checked #2 Spruce. The lumber I have access to locally from PA has been straight #1 Douglas-fir with a few checks. I've been purchasing in PA, cutting it at home and trailering it to my site.

As far as the length, from what I read there are no regulations on that. Almost all my longer or wider boards are 1/8th to 1/2 inches over length. I never heard of 1.5 inches. I use a sliding compound miter saw to cut all my boards to the right length.

There are pretty strict rules on softwood lumber grading for width, material loss, and moisture content. As far as moisture content, the allowable amount is 19%. My limited understanding is this is still wetter than long term air dried lumber. A well placed complaint will hopefully get some attention. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

http://www.wclib.org/R17-PDF-Online/WCLIB/pdfs/e_WCLIB_2004_RulesBook_3.pdf

July 05, 2012, 09:00:03 AM

CjAl, that is why I never order delivery if I can help it. There are always bad boards in the bunch. If I have time and the project requires good wood, I pick through the pile myself. The ones on top of the pile are usually the garbage boards that everyone else picked through. I don't know if it is deliberate on the part of the yard, or simple laziness on the part of the worker. I've seen it a dozen times while picking through the stacks. When they fill an order they just pick what ever # of boards off the top of the pile and load them up. Some of the boards I had just put aside with major defects. I had this when I bought my floor joists. I had a worker help me load them from an upper shelf. Even during only quick glances. There were 3-4 boards that where obviously missing whole edges, or split almost the whole length. The worker would have been happy to load them onto my trailer without care (and tried) if I hadn't rejected them. They simply put them back on top of the stack for the next person.

Erin · July 05, 2012, 09:14:06 AM

I agree with squirl! The only time I've taken delivery is when I had a special order that's not normally carried in stock, anyway.

I always take my time to carefully pick what I want. Afterall, I just bought this stuff, I should get to determine what I get! Consequently, I get nice, straight, clear lumber. I was out in the board shed for over 3 hours one day, picking exactly the lumber I needed...
I also, always, tip the yard-lads for putting up with me and helping me be obnoxiously picky.

To the original question, I noticed the exact same thing MushCreek! I thought it was Menards, being cheap (which might be true, actually). But those 11 7/8" boards threw off the couple of 2x12s I got from the local yard, since they were a full, nominal width of 11 1/4".

Fortunately, I don't have to worry about getting "dinged" by anyone for my lumber being a bit slim. But you probably won't either. The liklihood that your inspector is going to be checking nominal width is pretty low, I would think...

Squirl · July 05, 2012, 09:42:58 AM

I think I posted the wrong link. I will leave it up because I think it is a good one too.

http://gsi.nist.gov/global/docs/vps/psfiles/PS_20-99.pdf

So a 12 inch nominal board is required to be within 1/8th inches of 11.25 inches. chart p.6

CjAl · July 05, 2012, 02:05:36 PM

i didnt have a choice on the delivery. i do a lot with my suburban but i wasnt going to attemp 16 foot 2x12's with an 8' bed

July 05, 2012, 02:54:30 PM

I understand. I know from other threads that you're a jeep guy. I have built almost my whole house so far with my jeep and a harbor freight folding trailer. With the sales and a 20% off coupon, I was able to get it for around $200. I can usually hang a very long board off the front 2.5 - 3 ft.. Then the center is supported 8 ft and the rest hangs off the back. I was able to move my 20 ft rebar on it. Those delivery charges can add up. I just thought I would let you know. It might be a way to save a few dollars over the entire build.

Since everyone likes pictures. 40 2x12x10s

alex trent · July 05, 2012, 07:02:46 PM

Hell, I carried six 2"x10"x16' on the top of my jeep...steel rack around the soft top. Got to lash um on good. They bound a bit on the overhang part, especially on the rough trail in 4WD, but easy does it and they stay on. Only 20 miles.

Don_P · July 05, 2012, 10:01:51 PM

On a jeep you can weld a front and rear bumper pocket and then fabricate racks to drop into the pockets to carry long stuff, not much but it will work, for much material the trailer is much better although a jeep is not the best towing machine but it is a versatile vehicle.

Treated lumber is first dried in the rough sawn state, roughly a full 2x12 green. It shrinks considerably during drying and is then surfaced to 1-1/2x 11-1/4". It then goes into the treatment chamber and swells as any wet wood will do. The lumber is then drip dried and stacked for delivery typically. Very little is redried.

Now for why it can be so dimensionally off when it redries. First is that, as Squirl said, the original kiln drying was to 19%. I just metered some air dried lumber we made at the job and we are running 12%, that's about the average equilibrium moisture content for our region. That's going to leave it under 11.25" even if untreated if it started at 19%. (This is all accounted for in the tables, etc, you will not be dinged). Secondly, when wood is kiln dried, and one of the advantages of kiln drying over air drying, is that dry wood is about twice as strong as green wood. Stick with me. If you can dry it rapidly you "set" the wood before it can distort excessively. The high strength dry shell holds the shape while the rest of the wood is drying, less drying degrade. This sets up internal stresses called... drying stress. High value woods like oak have a conditioning period at the end of the kiln cycle to release these stresses, a shot of steam rewets the wood, the wood relaxes and then the final drying. SYP dries very fast and they don't typically condition it. It comes out of the kiln and it is planed to dimension, the drying stress is there. That stress is relieved in the treatment chamber and then the wood redries in air. The dimensional variation is then much wider. It gets better. In the 80's they introduced high temperature kilns that operate above the boiling point of water for SYP, that's how fast this wood can dry withouty turning into toothpicks. The wood is more caramelized in color (and in fact) and the drying stresses are higher, I can hear a snap as I cut it often as the cut releases some of the stress. More stress magnifies the effects above in the treating chamber. And there's more. If the lumber contains reaction wood, if it's SYP that's about guaranteed, dimensional stability is even worse. For a good flat floor system pt is tough to work with. I use the power planer alot.

In the end though it is worlds better dimensionally than rough sawn lumber green from the saw.

MushCreek · July 06, 2012, 04:54:27 AM

I also bought PT 2X12's, and they were all over the place. One was 1-3/4" thick and 11-5/8" wide! I know PT runs big because of swelling. Should be interesting trying to hang drywall on the basement ceiling.....

firefox · July 06, 2012, 06:30:26 PM

I seem to remember getting some "Z-bar" or some such for producing a drainage plane when
I was putting some T-11 siding on a garage. I wonder if you just flaten one of the fins out so you have a long "L" shape, then nail that to the side of your joists so that the short part of the "L" is level throughout. Then screw the sheet rock to that.
Hope this was clear enough and helps.
Bruce

July 07, 2012, 05:58:57 AM

The floor system consists of a central LVL, TJI joists, and PT ledger boards. I had to use PT as they are bolted to concrete. I guess I could have used LVL's for ledgers with a barrier- too late now.

CjAl · July 07, 2012, 06:43:28 AM

when i was building up my tripple beams i had a few boards considerably narrower then the others. i tried to use them on the center of the beam. unfortunatly they were usually the more cupped boards too.

$200 isnt bad for a trailer althou that trl looks like its crying "HELP" with all that wood on it. i have been looking for a 16' trailer but for the prices i am finding i can pay for a lot of $25 delivery fees. i found one for $450 but it was home made and it looked way too light of metal for a big trailer.