Foundation

[stpauligirlmn]

How difficult is it to repair plumbing in a slab foundation house?  How often are pipes buried in cement a problem?  

What is the best house foundation (subjective, I know, but I'd like to hear what you have to say).    

[PEG688]

#1: How difficult is it to repair plumbing in a slab foundation house?  

#2: How often are pipes buried in cement a problem?  

#3:  What is the best house foundation (subjective, I know, but I'd like to hear what you have to say).    

#1: Depends ,  :-/ on what you consider difficult.  It takes a jack hammer and generally a concrete cutting saw , either a walk behind or hand held . A big mess is made ,,, any finished floor is ruined , generally the leak / reason to replair has already done some damage anyway.  

Then you dig up the pipe . Make the repair, recover the pipe with clean fill , after it's teseted of course   then pour concrete back over the fill ,, finish (smooth out) the concrete , redo the finished flooring and yer done . So it depends , if you have finished flooring and what your expectation of "difficult " is  

#2: Generally it is not a broken pipe but a mis- placed pipe / remodel that wants to move the pipe , that is the issue.  Plastic Piping , todays stuff ,  buried in a slab should  last 50 years or more , baring earthquake , Lahars ,mud slides , tornados , and a tornado MTL would only damge the pipe at floor level , whats burried in the slab MTL  would be fine , the rest of the place would be toast but what the hey, ya can't have everything

#3: For a normal residence  ,  1 storey ,  a poured concete full basement with proper sized footing and 6" wall , properly  ventilated , and french drain protected is had to beat.  Two storeys use 8" walls and again propperly sized footing , over two storeys consult a Engineer.  Yes with rebar , hold downs , proper bolt schedules , etc etc , common stuff.  

In the bible it talks about building apon a rock , well a rock today is a pretty poor foundation support , unless it's bed rock , ledge / and large , the ledge that is ,  then a concrete foundation bolted / attached to said rock is fine , generally , Of course there are exceptions    Consult the engineer again.        

[glenn kangiser]

Slab floors are quite common here and as PEG said - very little problem with DWV pipes once they're in and tested.  This is done before the slab goes down.  Copper under the slab can get electrolysis problems if it gets damp but being water lines they could be brought in above.  I worked with an old carpenter after school who did DWV pipe in copper too - he liked it but it wasn't common.  The pex tubing pretty well eliminates underground problems with copper - I was warned about the copper up here in the mountains when I first got here by the people at the hardware store.  Our ground likes to quickly eat holes in it.

I think if I were not in the underground cabin, then my preference on foundation would be full basement then extra deep crawl space - at least 24"  - I don't care for crawling too much.

Concrete slab floors are good for quick and easy - nearly all housing projects around here use them, but they are hard on the walking -- just not as satisfying a house to live in I don't think.  I have lived in 2 of them.

[John Raabe]

There is something to be said for getting the foundation tall enough to stand above the future soil line.

If you look at buildings that have been around for a century or more, almost all are built up above the ground quite a ways. Not a lot of slab on grade in that group.

Also, for some reason, the ground has a way of mounding up around structures and burying them. Just ask an archaeologist. (Ever been on the Underground tour of the old Seattle waterfront?)

[MountainDon]

(Ever been on the Underground tour of the old Seattle waterfront?)

Now I have a reason to visit there.    sounds like something I'd enjoy

[PEG688]

 (Ever been on the Underground tour of the old Seattle waterfront?)

 Now I have a reason to visit there.    sounds like something I'd enjoy

It is quite a good tour , under Ten bucks IIRC. I really enjoyed it , my wife wasn't quite as thrilled with it  

What's amasing is the conditions those folks lived with when that project was underway, the Denny regrade , I think it was called .

They had ladders to climb up and down from store fronts to the old sidewalks , and or up / down to get to the new sidewalk. Seattle people couldn't deal with that today. Talk about lawsuits waiting to happen

Tour info : http://www.undergroundtour.com/

I see it's $11.00 buck now   Still a good value  

[PEG688]

Concrete slab floors are good for quick and easy - nearly all housing projects around here use them, but they are hard on the walking -- just not as satisfying a house to live in I don't think.  I have lived in 2 of them.

Slabs suck to build on as well , temp bracing is a PITA , floors is never flat, and like John said they tend to get back filled around , flower beds , stuff just blow up against them, etc, etc etc  .  Let alone a kid learning to walk knockin thier head on that hard floor , I wouldn't own a house that was slab on grade , YMMV

[MountainDon]

Tour info : http://www.undergroundtour.com/

Wow!. Bury the old city to get it up higher above sea level. Turn street level into a basement.   Amazing!

As far as slab foundations go, I have one and would rather not. Around here tho' it's the norm, not just tract houses but even quite nice custom homes costing 2 - 3x the average.

There's something to be said about being a foot or more above ground level. Mid way through a hundred year rainstorm event is no time to discover your lot has a slight grade and drainage problem.   Many here had that experience last year. Not me tho'. Just lucky that I chose a lot on the top of a rise.    One house in the neighborhood sat for a week before the owners came home from vacation. Their surprise was six inches of water throughout with wicking up all the drywall.

[glenn kangiser]

Luckily for the cities, the permit you pay for relieves them from all liability for allowing that to happen, (check the fine print in the contract you sign) even though the cost for their blessing is 5, 10 , 15, $20000.00 or more sometimes.  

[PEG688]

Luckily for the cities, the permit you pay for relieves them from all liability for allowing that to happen, (check the fine print in the contract you sign) even though the cost for their blessing is 5, 10 , 15, $20000.00 or more sometimes.  

So are you saying big  brother should have to pay because Joe Smuckatelly buys bottom land in a river valley??  Me thinks you want it both ways Sir Glenn  :-/

 Like Marie Antoinette said " If they have no bread , then let them eat cake" , problem was there was no cake , nor cake makins to be had.

Also she never said that , so the rest of the storey goes Where  there / are there eye / ear witness's  


From : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Antoinette

Louis XVI's coronation took place at Reims during the height of a bread shortage in Paris. This is the context in which Marie Antoinette is incorrectly quoted as joking, "If they have no bread, then let them eat cake!" ("S'ils n'ont plus de pain, qu'ils mangent de la brioche.") [highlight]There is no evidence that this phrase was ever uttered by Marie Antoinette. [/highlight]When Marie Antoinette actually heard about the bread shortage she wrote, "It is quite certain that in seeing the people who treat us so well despite their own misfortune, we are more obliged than ever to work hard for their happiness.

[glenn kangiser]

Not really saying that, PEG.  

What I am saying is that big brother doesn't care as long as the tax/fee money rolls in and to exempt  themselves from any liability, they write the contract in their favor and force you to sign it to build.  No liability equals less concern for potential prblems but they still continue to take the money -- it's just a protection racket and insurance that you will buy the latest corporate produced, corporate lobbied, high embodied energy items on the market.  

A quote on the new materials that are "safe" by the code from a Google ad on this site,

It's amazing, but as recent as 1975, the average time before interior conditions became deadly was 17 minutes. That's a short enough timeframe, especially in the middle of the night. But, with the increase in use of synthetic materials in building products, furniture, and design materials, that timeframe has now been
reduced to 3 minutes!

Not much time, regardless if it's day or night.

www.PEARLprotected.com

That is some of the safety our code approved permits pay for.

In the old days they actually worked for their fees and did nearly all of the inspections, but now anything having to do with liability issues are passed on to the engineer, architect or special inspectors.  They really do very little for the outrageous amounts of money they collect for permit fees and if your house slides down the hill or gets a surprise flood it's too bad -- the fees don't really buy anybody anything.  They just fund the giant cancer of a bureaucracy that insures that our children will have to be very lucky to be able to afford a home of their own.  :-/

No PEG -- why do we need Marie Antoinette -- we have Barbara Bush commenting on the poor blacks after Katrina -- those lucky stiffs. :-?

Commenting on the facilities that have been set up for the evacuees -- cots crammed side-by-side in a huge stadium where the lights never go out and the sound of sobbing children never completely ceases -- former First Lady Barbara Bush concluded that the poor people of New Orleans had lucked out.

"Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this, this is working very well for them," Mrs. Bush told American Public Media's "Marketplace" program, before returning to her multi-million dollar Houston home.

Unlike Marie, Barbara wasn't misquoted-- I still remember the snide little chuckle.

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=20080

[desdawg]

Glenn, Glenn, Glenn, you are going to have to lighten up a little. You know they have your best interests at heart. They just haven't figured out how to adequately express that yet. Don't you just love people called "they"? Have you ever seen "they" be the good guy?

[PEG688]

So the solution is for the Bush govt. or the USA govt. to provide free,  to certain groups of "poor " people , "adquate" or above average housing after a major storm  


PC ness at it's fineist , like Imas maybe the nappy headed ho's , people of all color / race should have left N.O. before that Govt. directed storm was guided into N.O.  

A city BTW IMO that was poorly designed , it was a trading outpost, built in a river delta. Again a poor place for said outpost , let alone a major city.  

Talk about thread drift , are we good or what DRIFT MASTERS!  

[desdawg]

DRIFT MASTERS!  

Yep PEG, it is an artform here.

[PEG688]

I love it when Glenn sleeps in   I get to mess up a bunch of threads , then wait around for his rebutals  

[glenn kangiser]

You probably set your alarm early just so you can get up before I do. :-/

When those houses in NO were built permits were probably not much.  

What was the subject at hand -- you guys are going to get me in trouble again.  I almost thought I'd had it when I brought Batgirl into that other thread. :-?

Oh Yeah - [highlight]foundations[/highlight].  Now that the blacks have been dispersed so far and wide by the government while they assisted the NO mafia by blowing the levy in the black part of town, I think that they should force the Casino developers to put in tall enough [highlight]foundations[/highlight] - full above ground parking facilities etc. so that lives and property wll not be lost.  Maybe just the cars on the first floor.

[PEG688]

You probably set your alarm early just so you can get up before I do. :-/

When those houses in NO were built permits were probably not much.  

What was the subject at hand -- you guys are going to get me in trouble again.  I almost thought I'd had it when I brought Batgirl into that other thread. :-?

Oh Yeah - [highlight]foundations[/highlight].  Now that the blacks have been dispersed so far and wide by the government while they assisted the NO mafia by blowing the levy in the black part of town, I think that they should force the Casino developers to put in tall enough [highlight]foundations[/highlight] - full above ground parking facilities etc. so that lives and property wll not be lost.  Maybe just the cars on the first floor.

Ah maybe they should move to higher ground   yanno global warming , ice cap metling, increased huricane threat due to Govt, inspired G/Wing ,  etc,  etc .

Some places just should not be built apon , a river delta is one , a mtn. top would be another

[glenn kangiser]

I agree but since the developers wanted to get the blacks out of NO so they could lighten up the color of the city from Nagin's Chocolate to Vanilla, I think the gov. now has an obligation to make sure they do it right since they are hiding their tax grab under the color of safety.  Maybe that would mean not allowing them to rebuild. No new foundations.

[glenn kangiser]

a mtn. top would be another

You slipped that in on me --- you and the politicians  --- always trying to get something approved without someone noticing by slipping it in with something else.  It's a good thing my constituents watch out for me.

PEG -- while you are down there drowning and asking me to throw you a stick, my feet won't even be getting wet.

What about people who build on an Island?  No man is an Island - No man stands alone.  You guys all need help.

[John_C]

Back to our previously scheduled programming - foundations.

I'm a big fan of various post & pier or pole foundation.  I've seen them work well in almost any building condition.

The stilt houses in the mouth Biscayne Bay have endured open pounding by a dozen or more hurricanes and have fared pretty well.  Along the outer banks of NC the stilt house have also endured well.  You can't count the ones where the actual beach under them has eroded, the foundation would be irrelevant.

In Greenland where the frost line is ummm, really deep the houses are built on poles or stilts. Properly insulated they are more energy efficient than most US homes.

In the tropics may houses are built on poles with thermal chimney effect taken into account to aid ventilation.

In the steepest areas of NC many of the homes are built in poles or concrete piers. Sometimes the back side of the house is 40 feet or more above grade, while the front is only a couple of feet above grade.

If/when there is a problem it is usually easily repaired.

I believe they have a bad reputation because of  some terrible examples.  Here in N Georgia I can think of quite a few houses built on "piers" that are nothing more than a bunch of flat rocks stacked on the ground.  Some of those houses and log cabins are 100 years old, some much older.  Most settled, bent, broke, or were toppled by strong winds.  That sort of 'foundation" has given post & pier a bad name.

I'm also jaded for having been around too many conventional foundations with problems.  When I built my house it was considered an unnecessary expense to put rebar in footings.  Most of the $300,000 and up log homes by the river are sitting on cracked foundations. Repair is difficult.  Again it isn't the type of foundation that's at fault but poor execution.

I know it takes a bit of thought to bring the plumbing in in a way that resists frost, but other than that what is actually wrong with them?

[JRR]

The split level house we currently live in was built in '49.  (No! I didn't do this job!)  It has traditional footings, foundation walls, and crawl/walk space with large masonry posts.... but also a section of basement concrete floor that covers all the exiting lead-joint iron drain pipe ... for several feet.  The basement/concreted area also includes a half-bath and washer drains.

Much as has already been suggested ... it didn't have to be done this way.  The drains could have all been directed through the area that has the earth floor.  The half-bath relocated and the toilet could have been wall-mounted.  The washer drain could have been thru-the-wall.

So this house has the expense of a traditional foundation, but all the problems of a poorly designed slab.

I've already had to patch the now-rotting iron pipe in the small section of drain that is in the earthen area ... I can only expect that the run under concrete is also well rotted.  I'm gonna have to deal with this thing before selling the house someday.

Poor planning can screw up anything.  Conversely, I thing good planning could make a slab foundation very serviceable.

[PEG688]

In a nut shell , they are normally not done right , under sized , allow critters under the building, etc .

A big foot , or similar post and pier foundation / footing could work , IF it was done right. Pile driven to refusal in Alaska tend to work back up , a foundation may do the same thing , but I have not heard of that , MTL it has happened.

So the" perfect foundation " [highlight]will vary depending on local conditions [/highlight]to nurmrous to site / count / type about .  

A full concrete foundation gives good storage space , equip . rooms, easy access to plumbing lines in the basement ceiling , etc, for a pretty in expense sqr. ' price.

Post and pier gives you a dirt crawl space full of who knows what. Bugs , cats , gator's , mice etc

[desdawg]

When I was in Colorado we poured piers then set the stem on the piers witha cardboard void beneath it. The void would deteriorate and the stem would have some space beneath it. This was used in soil with bentonite content. When bentonite gets wet it expands or heaves. The void would protect the concrete from heaving. So this would be a poured in place post and beam. Like PEG said, local conditions dictate different practices. One size does not fit all.