16' x 20' cabin design

[Caroline]

Hello...
I have been working on a small cabin design for a few months. It is to be built on a double lot in Queen Charlotte City, Haida Gwaii. The lot has only a small area to build on, great for a 16 x 20 cabin. The view is beautiful, overlooking the harbour. Construction will start sometime this winter... I would be grateful for any feedback regarding my ideas so far. I would like to build something cozy yet functional.
Thanks!
Caroline

[glenn-k]

Cute design.  How many people - just one?

I had a time figuring out where you were at - Hadn't heard of the Islands before.

Welcome to the forum.

[Sassy]

How about making the dormer a little bigger?  Would give you lots more room in your loft   - otherwise, as Glenn said, "looks real cute!"

[mark_chenail]

What a nice tight design with plenty of varied storage for a small house.  Im really fond of built in cupboard beds with drawers underneath and the w/d right next to it is a dandy idea.  You can do the wash and sort it on the bed.  You could even just reach over from the bed and get clean warm from the dryer clothes on a chilly morning.

Glenn:  You werent the only one that had to look up Haida Gwaii.  Sounds like a future location for the Survivor show.

[Caroline]

Thank you for the comments so far... And feel free to nit-pick!

The cabin is designed for one person, but it could easily shelter a couple - that is why I want a closed loft, for privacy and an extra sleeping space if needed for guests. I have settled on a ladder instead of a staircase, because of space. I put the bed on the main floor to avoid the nightly trip(s) down the ladder to get to the bathroom...

One thing I have not figured out is where to pile up dirty laundry (there shouldn't be much of it). My thought was simply to throw it into the washer until there is enough to wash...  .

Sassy - I think that is a good suggestion about making the dormer bigger. Maybe one foot wider, with a bigger window - what do you think? I also want it to be proportional to the cabin's size - do you think that matters?

Haida Gwaii (also known as the Queen Charlotte Islands) is the most beautiful place. Queen Charlotte is a small town (maybe 2000 pop.) and very friendly. Great if you like to fish or kayak, or just stare at the weather which changes all the time. I have attched a picture of the view from the lot...

Caroline

[Sassy]

Beautiful view!  I lived up by Bellingham for 12 yrs & have been up to Vancouver Island several times & all around Point Roberts & the San Juan Islands - beautiful country!  I had an ex-brother-in-law who used to fish out of Cordova (unfortunately he was lost at sea during a terrible storm while fishing a few months ago) had a friend who lived in Ketchikan & my ex-husband used to salmon fish in Sitka.  I never did make it up that far north but would love to visit - my sister & her husband & some other friends are planning a cruise up through there in a couple years so am hoping that we can go also.  

Enlarging the dormer would give you more room - & proportionality was a concern I had...  I asked Glenn if he thought it would make it look out of proportion if you added a foot, he didn't think so.  Your design looks a lot like some of John's plans.  Glenn is looking up his designs in case you need a structural design & will post what John has.

[glenn-k]

This is the same width as the Victoria's Cottage.

If you need structural design this could make it real easy and cheap.  Put your plan into the Victoria's shell - shortening it is no problem.  Under $100 for the plan but it may be subject to local building department review and they may want a local architect to stamp it.  I am not familiar with your local requirements.

[bartholomew]

Wow, I really like how you've managed to fit so much into the small space. There are a couple small things I would do. First I'd stick the water heater up in a low-ceiling corner of the loft. Then I'd swap the toilet and sink. Since the sink doesn't need as much clearance from the bathroom door, the bathroom could be made smaller by maybe a foot. That would create enough space for an L-shaped kitchen. I lived with an undercounter fridge for about a year and it was way too small for me (and I don't even cook much, didn't have a lot of sauces, dressings and so on taking up space). Again, nice design (and terrific views).

[jraabe]

Caroline:

Very nice basic design. Charming and well thought out.

I also like the suggestions Bartholomew has made.

I am a bit worried about the wood stove space. Is propane a reasonable option there? It could solve the hot water heater issue - you could do a wall mount tankless heater. Then you could get a tiny propane fireplace or stove that wouldn't have the clearance issues of a wood stove. This little place isn't going to need much heat if you use something like my plan has with 2x6 walls and an R-30 roof.

[Amanda_931]

Nice looking.  And gorgeous view.

I had an undercounter fridge once myself, and just like Bartholomew, I hated it.  It also didn't work very long.  I replaced it with a 9 foot, separate freezer and refrigerator compartments, set up on  small platform that I had built with some extra storage up and down, and a tiny counter space that I ended up using for another seven years in two more houses. (not the nice--and much bigger because of all the insulation Sun-frosts--but an Italian made Sears.)

And I'll say what I always say about plans--

A second door and/or fire escape.  Please.

Another pet peeve of mine is having to go through a bedroom to get to a bathroom.  

I'm considering library ladders--the kind that are not as straight up and down as ship's ladders.  they take up more room but they can roll--maybe even out of the way.  One of the magazines had an ad for some that they swore were affordable.  But I haven't checked it out yet.

[MountainDon]

I too wonder about that wood stove. A wood stove really takes up a lot of space when you safely allow for all the empty space to have proper clearance from combustibles. (Conbustibles such as wood, fabrics, rugs are the obvious ones, but they also include the paper on any drywall you might plan on.) Also not too sure about being so close to a window... is there a danger of cracking glass or melting a vinyl frame? Did you have a particular stove in mind; would be interested in your choice? I've had a lot of trouble finding a well built stove small enough to be used in a small cabin like this.

[MountainDon]

... and I agree with Amanda about the second door and a fire escape from the upper floor. My plans for a 14 x 26 include a smallish custom built (that means me) 22 - 24 inch back door. I'll post a plan here sometime soon for purusal and reaction.

[Caroline]

Hi to all - and thanks for all the comments!

Bartholomew:  I love the idea for the water heater - I will try to redraw the kitchen/bathroom with it in mind and see what it adds up to...

John & MountainDon - I was thinking about a small Jotul woodstove. Here is a link that has the specs on it:  http://www.northweststoves.ca/wood-stoves-gas-fireplaces/f602.html
What do you think?
Another good link I just found regarding small wood stoves:
http://www.marinestove.com/index.htm
I like the "Little Cod" model...

Amanda: I was thinking about having a ladder against the outside cabin wall, leading down from the loft window, as a fire escape route. Not for the faint of heart, I know, but that was my idea. Any other suggestions? As for the bathroom access issue, it was a compromise to keep the place small. I'd rather have it that way then access from the kitchen, and I wanted the view for the bedroom...

As for the fridge issue, maybe I should sacrifice the entrance closet... I might also be able to fit a larger one if I move the water heater to the loft, as Bartholomew suggested. Hmmm...

Cheers,
Caroline

[MountainDon]

Thoughts...

Water heater: up in the loft... only if it sits in a pan to catch and drain off the water when it leaks. Why not a tankless model? They aren't prone to leaking much at all from what I understand.
Wood stove:
I like the Jotul F602; I have it on my "Hmmm" list. I personally think the "little cod" looks too small, burn time rather short on their spec list, for whatever that's worth. The Jotul clearnce to combustible is one of the smallest I've seen, when used with the one inch air gap shield. The "litle cod" is pictured with a nice stainless steel shield.

You still might want to consider a small propane or natural gas if that's available (my mind is working in off-grid, off in the boonies mode, excuse me) so you don't have to worry about freezing if you're away.

As for the fridge, it is surprising how small a unit you can make do with, however I find that freezer space is as important to me as fridge space. The under counter types I've seen don't offer much freezer space.

[Caroline]

I have made a few changes to the main floor layout, with thoughts of moving the hot water tank to the loft. I now have a space for a regular size fridge.

I am intrigued about the tankless hot water system, MountainDon - what is that all about?

Caroline

[glenn-k]

We have the Bosch 125 HX on demand heater.  Makes it as you need it - no storage,  No standing pilot in the HX so saves propane - has a little water dynamo spark generator.

http://www.tanklesswaterheatersdirect.com/shop/tanklesswaterheaters/aquastar/aquastarindex.htm

[glenn-k]

Looks like there is an update on the 125 HX - the 1600 H apparently supersedes it now.

http://www.tanklesswaterheatersdirect.com/shop/tanklesswaterheaters/aquastar/boschaquastar1600hbuypage.asp

[MountainDon]

Glenn is right on the money, as usual. We have a Rinnai, there are several models. Some mount inside, other are exterior mounts. I chose an exterior mount and used the reclaimed space inside for an emergency supplies closet... water, food, first aid stuff. There are about a half dozen models in each of the int/ext series to choose from. Just calculate your probable maximum hot water flow and go from there. Yes, like most better things they cost more up front but if you don't use any warm/hot water you don't use any gas either. Very cool, or is that hot?!

Manufacturer's website at    http://www.foreverhotwater.com

You could stick it on an outside wall, enclose it in an insulated "blister" if necessary.

[Caroline]

Awesome, I had never heard of tankless hot water... This may be just the ticket.

Propane is an option in Queen Charlotte, but I am a bit nervous of having it when I plan to be away for months at a time and possibly having a renter - any thoughts on the safety issues with propane? I keep hearing stories of leaks and explosions...

Caroline

[jraabe]

Propane is quite safe and is used extensively to heat cabins and buildings left for long periods of time. It would certainly be safer than a wood stove with renters who may not be as careful as you would be.

A couple of suggestions:
• Unlike natural gas, propane is heavier than air and can pool in a confined unvented space - don't put a propane water heated in an unvented cellar.
• Buy new, high quality appliances with all the current safety gizmos. This is not the place to save money on antiques.
• Get direct vent equipment where possible and have good whole house ventilation so air is exchanged regularly (this is true for any combustion equipment - wood, oil, etc.)

[highlight]Note[/highlight] - When ever you find a new topic on the forum that you are not familiar with, do a search for the term in the main CountryPlans search box. It now does a pretty good job!   Here is a search for "tankless water heater" - it searches everything on the entire CountryPlans site.

(It's bit of a mouthful that even TinyURL choked on) - http://countryplans.com/search2.html?domains=www.countryplans.com&q=tankless+water+heater&sa=Search&sitesearch=www.countryplans.com&client=pub-4645216745855692&forid=1&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&cof=GALT%3A%23008000%3BGL%3A1%3BDIV%3A%23336699%3BVLC%3A663399%3BAH%3Acenter%3BBGC%3AFFFFFF%3BLBGC%3A336699%3BALC%3A0000FF%3BLC%3A0000FF%3BT%3A000000%3BGFNT%3A0000FF%3BGIMP%3A0000FF%3BFORID%3A11&hl=en

Here is the search box link:
http://www.countryplans.com/search.html

Question to Glenn and other Web experts... the new search box finds the old forum posts that are still on the CP server. For some reason they cannot be read. I can download the file to my desktop and read it (these are simple html files) but the old wwwboard 2.0 system won't show them online. I have turned off the posting files so we are not subject to the spam attacks the old forum experienced. However, it would be nice if we could make these old posts readable. Any ideas?

[MountainDon]

If I was renting a place out with a wood stove I'd probably want to chain and lock the door shut or some such thing. I've seen enough homeowners do stupid things with their own wood stoves; I wouldn't want a renter playing with fire in my property, but then that's just pessimist, cynical me.

If you are planning on being away for periods of time and don't have a renter, and if the weather could turn to freezing, be sure to make allowances for that in all the plumbing... sloping pipes (use PEX, it's a little forgiving) , drains at low points, a point to introduce pressurized air to blow the pipes clean, and use RV anti-freeze in the plumbing drain traps.

Does it get that cold there? It's snowing here today and up in the mtns where my cabin will be it does definitely freeze. Expecting at least 6 inches, maybe a foot up there.

[Amanda_931]

The only iffy thing about demand water heaters is that you have to have water pressure, and the minimum required--usually about half of standard city water--is still a bit iffy.

In a major electrical grid failure, that can be a problem.

In town, with a giant water tower--no problem.  As long as they can get water up there there's plenty of pressure.

In the country, as long as your pressure pump works, again no problem.

I have two sets of friends who do not have standard water pressure.  One on- one off-grid.  One has a near artesian spring above the level of their house.  With 1" pipes from a cistern also above the house they do a pretty fair job of simulating water pressure for everything except a possible tankless water heater.  They have a home-brew solar water heater with a tank-type electric heater for backup.

The others have a standard propane tank type heater, run water from the creek with a ram pump up to a cistern.

I usually have spring and rain water available.

Acquaintances who rent out a log cabin on their property have done what Don recommends--disabled the wood stove in there.  

[glenn-k]

John said

Question to Glenn and other Web experts... the new search box finds the old forum posts that are still on the CP server. For some reason they cannot be read

www.countryplans.com/bbs/messages/1508.html

Above is one of the heater files.

I can't seem to find anything past countryplans.com - maybe the files are not public or shared  or something like that.  

There should be a sub-folder called /bbs with one in it called /messages with a ton of numbers of messages - this would be 1508, but I can't get to it.  I don't know why.  I'm only medium hi tech --- there are a bunch here now better than me.

[MountainDon]

The only iffy thing about demand water heaters is that you have to have water pressure, and the minimum required--usually about half of standard city water--is still a bit iffy.

I hope I edited this quote thing properly to work... only way to know for sure is to try.

That temporarily slipped my mind... I had the concern when we went tankless and solved the problem by putting a UPS (uninteruptible power supply like for a computer) into the system. It'll carry us through a few hours without any problem.

And yes, this is in town. When the area was first built 21-22 years ago we had too much pressure. City has planned too good for future use. The developer had to put in a pressure reducer. One of the many things they tried to get away with/without doing.

As for country living, on grid I think I'd want o pressure pump on the whole system no matter what. Same for off grid, except there I'd be planning on enough battery pack to keep everything going for several sunless days. I also figure that a cistern that holds a few days worth of water would be smart in case the submersible pump fails. Then I'd have a spare pressure pump all setup with bypass valves so all I'd have to do is pull a couple valve handles and a switch for the electrical... (that's what I have in the RV as it's possible to be in the middle of knowhere and have the pump fail leaving you with tanks of water under your feet and no easy way to get at it. I'm big on redundancy wherever easy and/or not prohibitively expensive.

[Caroline]

I was wondering if anyone has an opinion about sun panels in a place where it rains a lot... Is it still worth while? What could one expect to run off of them? Can you store energy easily for a rainy day (literally)? What does that kind of system cost?

Caroline