Contracting in Iraq

Onkeludo2 · July 24, 2010, 02:53:54 PM

After a pretty severe thread deviation caused by yours truly, Sassy mentioned we might want end our hi-jack and take it off topic...rightfully so. Of course by the time she had posted the suggestion I had dozed watch last years TV...thanks AFN.

I occasionally mention things in Iraq in my posts because I have spent about a 1/4 of my professional life over here. Naturally, it has made an impression me. My disclosure is that I am not in the military nor have I ever been. I work as what many people over here refer to lovingly as a GASSC (greedy-arse-scum-sucking-contractor). The first two years, 2005-2007, I spent in the Al Anbar Province building Iraqi Army bases, Iraqi Police stations and border forts. These two tours I have a cushy office job tracking and analyzing the flow of money and what we get for it.

Being in places like Ramadi, Fallujah and Habaniyah before and after the Awakening Councils help the Marines restore order was pretty...interesting. For those who do not know what the Awakening Councils were, it was when a bunch of sheiks stood up and told their personal militias that they would join the Iraqi Police so they could take back their cities from the insurgents and help end the sectarian violence. It worked in spades. Of course many people, including me, still question what those former militiamen will do when their US advisors are no longer looking over their shoulders.

So far I have been wrong, though...I expected the chaos to begin the second Marines pulled out and the Army rotated in. Most Army units have a less "hands-on" approach to mentoring. Rarely will you see a beautiful new F250 quad-cab (thanks tax payers) with two Iraqi's in the front seat and two US soldiers in the back. This was how the Marines did it. I know, I was living in the unfinished Iraqi Police compound with just 20 armed South African security guys (mercenaries) and a line of 6' foot Hesco barriers (giant sandbags) between me and about 1400 Iraqi Police trainees and their Iraqi and contractor trainers.

Now I sit in a new, but substandard, office trailer 12 hours a day, 7 days a week chasing money and trying to help keep other contractors honest. I can't say I miss being out in the 120 F heat waiting for a helo flight, for the third day in a row, to take me from one dusty base to another. I do miss the sense of accomplishment of watching stuff actually get done instead sitting in a meeting listening to a room full of Colonels argue about which is to be cut first during a base closure, the Greenbean coffee shop or the freezers that store the ice cream (minor exaggeration...very minor).

So after that insanely long soliloquy, I guess the question is...what do do you want to know? I have a slightly different perspective than the average service member and a vastly different perspective than most in the media. I have watch the stupidity of Army contracting and seen the success of hooking up rural towns to electricity for the first time (then watch the local militia steal the generator).

Mike

glenn kangiser · July 24, 2010, 03:57:14 PM

Had to go back to old posts for background, Mike. Not around as much anymore.

Thanks for opening a thread here. I have read lots about these cities over the years.

An ex covert ops friend says we are not there to help the Iraqis - we are there for our corporate interests. He even said we are there to kill them.

Do you think the lives of our servicemen are being used more for commercial interests of the elite than to counter any threat from Iraq. Seems they never had enough strength to threaten anyone too far past their border..... and feel free to drift from these questions in any direction you want also.

It is my feeling that the common Iraqi people are just like the common American people when they are not pushed by government corruption, politics and greed into doing the will of their corrupt authorities.

Thanks - Glenn

July 24, 2010, 11:06:33 PM

Hmm, the first one is a toughy. I do not doubt that there might have been some thought toward the old-school economic effects of going to war. As far as Corporate America, even the industrial military complex, profiting from Iraq it really is not a high profit war...at least not the contracts I deal with. It is more a high cash-flow war and a large part of the cash is flowing out of the US economy verses flowing around in it.

We hire and average of 3 foreigners for every one Expat contractor. Granted, most are from SE Asian and Eastern Africa with wages less than 1/4 of an Expat, but it still seems a waste.

Then there are construction projects...we had build everything for the Iraqi Army to US Sandbook standards even if there was a conflict between that and sanity (had to fight for or a year to get approval to install foot washing stations in the latrines). An audit of the Afghanistan construction projects revealed, the local governments are not prepared to maintain the overly complex facilities...we have has always planned to pay for maintenance on those structures for a minimum of 1 year in Iraq which is a few million for each base.

If we did this for the oil...boy what a waste. Iraq is still more that three years away from significant production which is when the first oil-related infrastructure projects are complete.

The second one, I think we came into this war to win it and we did...in little more than 30 days. The problem was, we were not prepared for the rebuilding, sectarian violence, asymmetrical warfare, etc, that came after winning. We had the best equipped and well trained forces, partnered with a few very impressive coalition countries, for a conventional land war in Europe...and they still did great job kicking butt against Iraqi conventional forces in the desert.

An odd thing about the death rates of service men here in Iraq, they have been not statistically much higher than 'Stateside military deaths in training accidents, car accidents, etc. That is no comfort to their loved ones back home, though. What is staggering is the number people maimed or with severe mental or social consequences from multiple tours. The former is thanks to better equipment and amazing advances in battlefield medicine. Service members are surviving horrific injures that would have killed them 20 years ago. The latter...I really can't comment on because I do not know.

The last question is a tough one as well. The Iraqi's, like anyone, want their kids to grow up and have a better life than they did. Federal and local governments are amazingly corrupt, especially by American standards. There are a few major differences, though.

Corruption is not just a government thing...it is the grease on the wheels that makes everything turn. Iraqi Army Colonels would sell the diesel that was suppose to power the bases we built them in such large amounts that they could only run the generators about 10-12 hours per day. The food service company that fed their soldiers had to pay a "fee" to get their people on base each day. Paying bribes is a part of everyday life at every level of society.

In Al Anbar, tribal warfare was a part of life before Saddam and it returned in force when he was removed from power. Value of human life for many is very low. I compare it to the religiously fueled wars in Europe of the middle-ages. They were never really about religion, but the that lent legitimacy to wanton killing. I can understand the Iraqi people focusing most of their energy fighting the foreign invaders (us), but I will never understand the violence they inflicted on each other.

Most of the Iraqi's I worked directly with were college educated and from well to do families. They were mostly engineers and construction professionals. Their opinion was that the only cure to Iraq's cycle of internal struggle is education. A lot of British authors agree. When a large majority of you adult population is illiterate and many do not have access to outside travel, news, etc, your world view begins and ends with your community. If the leaders of that community are no better than thugs hiding behind religion, it is hard to break the cycle. Moderate Imams tend to not have enough "fire" to excite the youth and the old men are set in their ways by their late twenties.

Enough ramble for now.

Mike

glenn kangiser · July 25, 2010, 12:59:59 AM

Thanks for the well thought out answers, Mike. It's not often that I get to talk to someone who has been there. There is a US reporter, Dahr Jamail who was there for a while that I followed and even met. I also followed Baghdad burning - - a blog by an Iraqi IT girl. Even got a couple emails from her-

I did not and do not see the war in Iraq as a money maker for the entire United States and associated countries. It is a money maker for the elite and the world leader puppets simply steer the ship as ordered to make sure that the elite families are able to transfer present and future money from the taxpayers and their children into their bank accounts now rather than later. There will be more to plunder later.

Once you get below the level of the elite, then there is not much concern for the people of the US - the cattle- the sheep - the makers of meat to do the bidding of the elite in the endless wars all over the world which they will profit from no matter which way they go.

Here, by the elite, I do not mean our supposed leaders. They are just figureheads being pushed for the masters that rule the entire world, or the ones that at least wish they did or hope to.

Look at these wars and coalitions and wars as being directed by a power above the figureheads -- not God either - the owners of world government and directors of world events give direction through places like the CFR and meet to discuss direction of the world in groups like the Bilderbergers.

Our service people give their lives to fight for our country and I know that most are sincere. It is a shame that those lives and minds are stolen by the elite and smashed by IED's just so a bunch of puppetmasters can play war for greed, entertainment and profit. They must take them while they are young because they would not get most of them after they are older and they cannot mold their minds.

Do they care about their cattle? Does a cowboy worry about the downer being drug into the chute as it is ultimately ends up at McDonalds? Not at all - it's all in a days work.

World bankers profit no matter who wins. If they are not involved then why did we bail out banks in Europe?

Do you see any evidence of this if you look not at the cost to the US or Britain, but as a moneymaker for those above government, Mike?

Obviously they stay well hidden but little things like nearly exact word for word government official speeches in the US and Australia sometimes give some of it away. Things like Hilary giving a speech at the new CFR building and saying it is great that it is there instead of NY now so we do not have to go all the way to NY to see what we are supposed to be doing..... our independent government takes walking orders - direction - from the CFR.

Barky is hand raised by Zbigenew Brezenski to continue the march toward one world government. Nationality is not an issue. Who he ran against is not an issue. Whether he is a citizen or not is not an issue. What is an issue is that things continue on schedule in the marionette show. Zbig recently said he had things well under control.... and look at the US --- this is what they want...

Thanks again for your views on this and willingness to talk, Mike.

Onkeludo2 · July 25, 2010, 01:54:05 AM

Glenn,

I'll admit, most of what you are talking about is beyond my knowledge. I have never been much of a conspiracy theorist but...

One argument for the invasion of Iraq that I have read about makes sense to me. We did it not for our (direct) gain, but to block China from getting near exclusive rights to oil production output of Iraq. They had just signed some pretty all-encompassing contracts with Iran months before. China's only limiting factor to economic growth is energy. They are building extensive networks of hydro-electric damns but fossil fuels are a lot more portable plus the by products of refining are the basis for most plastics which are the basis for a large percentage of China's exports.

The irony of that is that the ONLY award for the development of Iraq's oil resources thus far has been to an arm of the Chinese national oil company. All the large multi-national oil companies did not want to accept the risk profile the Iraqi government was offering (think Venezuela where oil companies developed the resources 100% at their own risk only to have them nationalized before they could recover their investments). A Scottish firm known for North Sea work has contacted me twice to work on the project which is expected to take a minimum of three years to complete before one drop of oil will flow...and the Chinese company is assuming 100% of the risk in exchange for 20 years of profit off ever barrel exported. Where do you think that oil is likely to be exported to?

If denying China the Iraqi oil was the goal, we have failed miserably.

As a bit of an aside, I am a marginal Republican. Or as my friends who are Dem's like to say, I am Republican even if they don't want me. You see, my favorite American President was Ike Eisenhower. The least appreciated president of our century (OK, last century). Oddly enough, even though he was 5-star general, he was one of the most outspoken critics of the military-industrial complex. He went to great lengths to warn us of the undue influence on national security when most O-5's and above leave the military to work for the industry that supports it...and when the top executives of such companies are either former staff officers or former politicians instead of being qualified engineers.

Of course, his greatest accomplishment is the one that is normally attributed to Kennedy...the signing of the Civil Rights Acts. Although he did not author the bill, he is personally responsible for its coming into being by declaring racial discrimination a national security issue.

He personified what good government is to me...enable the people to make a better life for themselves while not meddling in their lives unless there is absolutely no other solution (see the civil rights legislation above). The legislation to make the interstate system is an excellent example...it was designed to be entirely self-funding through the over-the-road diesel and gasoline tax. He even managed a balanced budget for goodness sake!

OK, time to go to work.

July 25, 2010, 02:03:34 AM

Thanks, Mike.

Lots of good discussion and things to think about there. Have a good day - and off to sleep for me.

Don_P · July 25, 2010, 07:15:58 AM

"Things are more like they are today than they have ever been before."
Always liked that one.

"Though force can protect in emergency, only justice, fairness, consideration and cooperation can finally lead men to the dawn of eternal peace."
I think this speaks more to what you are saying.

My Dad made a comment years ago and I agree with it. We in the south were locked in a post war coma until he brought the interstate highways in which allowed commerce to flow. The war he was speaking of was an internal conflict almost 100 years prior.

The corruption you speak of is always present in collapsed economies, I hope your efforts will help direct the people up and through that. When people have lost that will, they have fallen back.

Pox Eclipse · July 25, 2010, 07:42:51 AM

Is it likely the sheiks who comprise the Awakening Councils will continue to suppress anti-government violence if the US military stops paying them hundreds of millions of dollars?

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/23/world/middleeast/23awakening.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

glenn kangiser · July 25, 2010, 10:39:10 AM

I think the world is in need of an awakening but if not an awakening by the world then an awareness by the few will at least help them to plan for their own futures,

Good article, Pox. Seems loyalty to money will beget more of the same. A dude has got to survive.

I see the same type of thing in our big cities such as Fresno as far as tribes - law - turf etc. go. The police clean up the messes but the gangs here pretty well arm themselves and kill each other. Much of the money and business is based on dealing drugs for the government. They make their own laws - kill each other for the most part. The government just supplies the means of income - once in a while an outsider is harmed by the gangs but for the most part it is a self sustaining economy. The gangs don't see the real world we would like them to. They are caught up in their own world.

Seems the world of the Iraqi's and Afghans is similar. We supply money - food - a policing force and weapons. As we try to step out of the picture and pull back on the money spent we arm both sides and then sit back and watch them kill each other. Just as planned per my covert ops buddy.

July 25, 2010, 11:48:03 AM

When central authority fails people look to local "leaders" for security. This is what happened in the dark ages after the fall of Rome. People vacated the cities and signed up in protected enclaves where they swore allegiance to what we would now call a warlord. Communication, commerce, the standard of living, education - all dropped precipitously. It took 1000 years to get back on track.

Gangs play this role in the inner cities today where work and money is available in the non-legal economy. Should central authority fail the gang's territory and influence could expand quickly.

Places like Afghanistan have never had a real nation state with a trusted military or government. What looks like a central government there is a council of warlords who no higher allegiances.

Onkeludo2 · July 25, 2010, 11:56:16 AM

Don_P: That second quote is priceless and I had forgotten it. Also the corruption is not just the devolving society...it is a part of the regional culture. It is severely amplified by the current conditions but bribery is a part of every country in the region as a part of daily life...at least those countries I have visited.

Pox Eclipse: In a simple answer, no. More complex answer is that the Sunni councils in the west stand a fighting chance IF they can find a charismatic uniting leader before the money runs out. If that happens I give them a 50/50 chance

Glenn: Guns were never in short supply for the militants. What we gave them was training. If that training is used by the militia as a militia and not as a policing force...your covert ops friend will be completely right.

I still have to go back to what I said though, I thought they would have already failed and I was proven wrong. They lost their leader and their oversight has been dramatically reduced yet they are more effective every day. Hope springs eternal.

Unrelated but possibly interesting:

My favorite story to tell people, not related to me, about those days is going to the downtown Government Center in Ramadi. The city had quieted down a lot by June 2007 so the State Department was pushing for actual Iraqi Provincial Government buildings in the communities. Most of the police stations had been intentionally built outside of hot zones and the provincial governments were honestly nowhere to be seen. We were sole-sourced to rebuild the old governor's complex in Ramadi because we already employed one of the "little sheiks'" construction companies as a subcontractor.

So we roll out of Four-Corners, head over the bridge, pasted Blue Diamond and toward downtown. The convoy was run by the Marines (unusual for us because we technically had no military support) with half of my team in the up-armored SUV in the middle, me in the back seat of the lead HUMVEE and my Project Manager in the trailing "gun truck" which is a field modified 5-ton truck designed to instill fear and/or push any disabled vehicle out of the kill zone. Basically, we were loaded for bear...Marines don't screw around.

About 10 minutes into the ride the co-driver turns to me and says, "That traffic circle up there, that is the deadliest place in Iraq." I am a brave soul but I was worried...when we slowed down so he could point out the various reasons the location was so dangerous, I almost crapped my pants. It was only after we made it safely through that they started laughing, "We cleared it an hour ago and you can't see it but there is an entire squad foot patrolling the area." Bastards.

The government center was manned by two squads of Marines and it was not a safe, defensible position. They expected us to rebuild about -edit-1200 sq meters of buildings, the sewage lift station and the generators. The largest truck that could pull in behind the perimeter wall was a 20' container truck or similar and there was only room for one at a time. All concrete would have to have to be mixed by a 1 cu meter diesel mixer from...I shit you not...Rolls Royce, left over from the British occupation. Oh, and there was no running water, bag-in-a-bucket for a toilet, and we had to share the two secure rooms with the Marines...sleeping, eating and everything else with 30 guys...15 sleeping and fifteen pulling perimeter guard.

I was so glad when I was told the area was not secure enough for the expats to live on site. I only had to do monthly visits and our South African merc's supplied a QA/QC engineer (who coincidentally was formerly of the Special Police Branch in Johannesburg) and the subs did the rest.

glenn kangiser · July 25, 2010, 04:24:06 PM

Seems we could be just a few steps away from that here in the US, John... or it may continue to stumble along wounded as it is for quite a long time with the medics patching things together as they can.

I guess how things go in the ME remains to be seen as saber rattling continues from all authorities and powers involved.

Sounds like experiences are a thrill a minute there, Mike. Be safe and be careful.

ScottA · July 25, 2010, 07:17:38 PM

Interesting thread. Thanks for posting it. As for why we're messing about in the ME alot of it lies in keeping the petro dollar in effect. Want to sell your oil for something other than dollars? You better build a bunker.

glenn kangiser · July 26, 2010, 01:30:57 AM

This made me think of you, Mike. Any concerns of DU and other problems in the areas you work in?

http://www.blacklistednews.com/news-9841-0-3-3--.html

Seems we are not trying our best to make them love us there and in Afghanistan though when the truth makes it out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/afghanistan-war-logs-military-leaks

July 26, 2010, 11:31:57 AM

Glenn: I hope that was a collective "we" in there. The airstrikes and drones were undoubtedly US based as was the Apache attack. A lot of the other stories were coalition forces. They also mentioned the highest number of casualties listed were from IED's...not our doing at least directly.

It still does not change the fact that civilians casualties occured in both wars. Some that is "excusable" based on how the enemy has chosen to fight this war. Some are accidents akin to friendly fire. Many are because the sad fact is that civilians suffer the most in any war. This why war should always be the last resort.

In Iraqi all of the above certainly happened, but I would hazard a guess that more civilians lost their lives (after the first 30 days of conventional warfare) to VBIED's, IED's and tribal warfare/insurgent activity. Not data but anecdotal to back that up.

Odds are, I have not been exposed to DU.

Mike

glenn kangiser · July 26, 2010, 02:21:53 PM

Yup - collective we - Our Admin and not necessarily the will of the US people.

I don't have any gripes with you, real contractors working for money, or military under orders and thinking what they are doing is in the best interest of the US.

I do have a problem with collateral damage and wars for fun and profit. I do have a problem with mercs being called contractors. I am a contractor but I am not a hired killer. I don't like the US using the word, "Contractor" to clean up the view of the Mercs (killers with no US limits.... like we are not responsible - they are out of our control... yeah, right)....

These people are not animals contrary to what our leaders want us to believe. Thinking what I would do if the same occupation was going on here, I have a hard time drawing the line between militants and groups of native Iraqis protecting their homes, sisters, brothers, mothers, dads, uncles, aunts, babies.... families and property from our invasion.

Bushes jokes about the missing WMD's highlighted the thin excuses they used to start this war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgYGOpYgFnM&feature=related

Those profiting from it are just taking advantage of the elites greedy motivations....a result of the problem ... not a direct cause.

Neither party has the interests of the people or the world in mind - just money and power and doing the will of the elite as directed. Even the president is a puppet.

Thanks for speaking of this, Mike and please don't take offense. Nothing directed at you. Just glad you will discuss this with a view from the other side of the world. I have relatives who have been or are there also. My wife is an RN and takes care of the Vets from this and other wars. Yup - she is a Fed.

Glad to hear you probably are not exposed to DU. From reports I have read the biggest threat from it is during the burning of it as it is fired and piercing steel etc. At that point the fumes and gasses from it are most dangerous, easily inhaled and do the most damage.

Onkeludo2 · July 27, 2010, 11:31:24 AM

Glenn: How could I take offence? You did not flame, your arguments were well thought and well articulated. Some of our views may differ, but not that much, and a healthy discussion is good for the soul.

I even understand, and agree for the most part, with your view on Merc's. I worked with many that were the picture of professionalism. They were my personal protective detail as, like the State Department folks, the military was not tasked with protecting us. We lost a 11 of them in the two years I worked there and 5 are still unaccounted for (the other 6 were kidnapped for profit and returned...for profit).

All that being said, there is no doubt that many of the groups operate completely without rules and are tasked with assignments we would not be allowed to ask our own soldiers and Marines to do.

Having 10K soldiers between me and the bad guys like I do now is much nicer than a handful of merc's.

glenn kangiser · July 27, 2010, 12:14:40 PM

Glad you see it that way, Mike. To make it clear, I am not anti-profit. Just anti killing of innocent victims in the name of profit for the elite. I don't have a problem with innocents fighting back in self defense either. I try to think of how I would view it, were I in their situation.

I find that I could be friends with most of these people from any other country, but even next door in Mexico, while I could be friends with most of the people, there are the few - maybe 1% who would just as soon kill me as look at me, probably for no money at all.

glenn kangiser · July 28, 2010, 12:59:05 AM

Stuff like this makes me wonder what our real motivation is and of course, why the foreigners don't always trust or especially care for us.

It also makes me want to be able to follow the money trail... 8.7 bil - no evidence of fraud.... just bad bookkeeping....

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/26/world/la-fg-iraq-funds-20100727

It would be cool if they accidentally stuffed it in my checking account....

Oh yeah ... it also backs up my theory that our boys lives are being squandered for the profit taking of the elite...

Like .. be wary of the military industrial complex.....

Onkeludo2 · July 28, 2010, 11:35:11 AM

For man who does not trust the establishment, you sure trust the press a whole lot.

The press is not a court of law so they do not have to tell "The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth." They tend to lack in the middle one in this case.

We have been going over the unclassified report for the last couple of days...we are still waiting on the full report but I would not discuss that if I had it. Short version, the press told no lies but they left out quite a bit. Most of the money was spent on valid projects. The accounting of exactly what we got for the money was extremely poor in some cases so there is a lot documentation that needs to happen after the fact, to include site inspections. When those site inspections are done, we will still have an appalling value-ratio (we got crap when we were promised gilt-edged) is my prediction.

Most of this money was spent on Iraqi-First initiatives. Some Iraqi contractors are very good, many are bad, too many are crooks. All of them have to be constantly watched if you expect to get what you pay for (in my limited experience). The military, through various agencies like MNTSC-I or in some cases as direct cash purchases from Iraqi vendors/construction companies, spent bucket loads of CASH. Record keeping was shoddy in the period from 2004-2006 particularly, because the Army was unwilling or untrained on how to force the Iraqi's to do business in a professional acceptable manner...aka acceptable billing, quality and accountability standards. What they often got was a hand written invoice, often in Arabic, that basically said "We supplied the required equipment to the army guys on March 1 2004".

This was negligent, but not fraudulent. They will find a large percentage of where it was spent.

That said, shame on us!

I personally can account for about $563K of that money. MNSTC-I forced us to accept a Ministry of the Interior lackey as executor of the O&M contract for an Iraqi Police training academy that our warranty period was about to run out on (we had to maintain what we built for one year). We were to be mentors to this individual and maintain the accounting and project controls activities with AFCEE's third-party QAQC company to do quality checks. The lackey spent about $60K to mobilize the O&M company (they were already on the site doing the same work as a subcontractor for us) then he disappeared with the remaining funds never to be heard from again. Unlike their treatment of US Prime contractors, MNSTC-I chose not use the pay-when-paid methodology or even incremental funding...they just deposited the whole sum into an MoI account with single signatory and no checks or balances! This was in 2006.

Still have not found that sum in the report so it may be considered accounted for. Our company refused to be involved in any more actions where we were not the Prime contractor.

Mike

July 28, 2010, 11:51:43 AM

Thanks for filling in some gaps, Mike.

Actually I do not trust the press much either. Especially the owned, US press. They just say what they are allowed to and are directed in the direction they can say it. Most US press is owned by about 5 or 6 major corporations who spew only as directed. I trust the foreign press more than our own press and I trust the comments of the people of foreign countries more about news stories than I do our own people.

It looks like the Wikileaks operation outing 91000 classified military documents is likely more steered propaganda - probably a CIA op to get the public brainwashed into allowing expanded operations in Pakistan for example. Wikileaks is foreign but it seems they are one of our gov tools too. It was said that Obama , tutored by Zbigniew Brezenski, would expand Pakistan operations before he ever got into office.

The War Project

Stories of those who were there. Stories of idiots in D.C. without a clue sending our kids to be shot at and worse. Actually they had a clue. Big money for them selling products of their investments. Nothing like beefing up the bottom line.

This guy was there first.

http://www.thewarproject.com/staff-sgt-george-zubaty/

"In Iraq, we were outside of Baghdad. We got called out to do some manual labor. It was explosive ordinance disposal. We were getting these boxes of rockets, they were 104, 105-millimeter rockets, and I'm sitting here on this bumper out in the desert, and we're loading this stuff on trucks taking it out to be blown up, and I'm looking at a lot of the guys, and most everybody is younger than me, because I had been to college first, and then went into the Army.

It was all American rockets. It was all shit we'd sold the Iraqi regime during the Iran-Iraq War. I remember talking to people about it, and they were asking, "Well, where does this stuff come from?"

Well, we sold it to them. We sell guns to everybody in the world. Because if we don't do it, the French'll do it. And if the French don't do it, the Israelis'll do it. And if the Israelis don't do it, the Russians will probably be the first on the list to do it.

You know, it's just business."

Onkeludo2 · July 28, 2010, 12:33:05 PM

On the last part...yep is all I can say. We have sold arms over the years to people who were later our enemies (Afghanistan!).

If you want an ironic twist, look up the Krup Artillery fuse. I have not read the th book in a while but the "Arms of Krup" had a great explanation about how an artillery fuse developed by the German steel and arms firm Krup was used by ALL the participants in WWII. For the Germans, they produced it in Europe. For the Americans and other Allies, Brazil, or under license, in their own countries!

As long as there have been wars, there have been those that profit from all sides of it.

Mike

Onkeludo2 · July 28, 2010, 12:44:37 PM

Sorry, that last post sounded like I condoned such activities...I do not. I am appalled by the manner in which we have handled arms sales since the 1960's. I have done a bit of research over the years that would bore most to tears. We have openly sold arms to no less than five countries that we have sanctioned from purchasing arms within five years of the last open sale. We have gone to war with three of them (if you count Grenada as a war...four but we never sanctioned them).

Still better than the British but they had a few hundred years head start.

glenn kangiser · July 28, 2010, 05:14:49 PM

Some think we are still secret subjects of Britain, Mike.

Actually we do not handle the arms sales. It is controlled business and profit taking above the control of the people who may not condone it if asked. We are just led to believe we have a say in our government - just enough to make us feel responsible for our governments actions. Actually it is a out of control runaway freight train and we can tug on the brake levers all we want but it is not stopping until it derails.

That is what I am talking about. The elite - the ones above most of the governments , are the ones that make sure guns are sold to both sides. The ones who educate the soldiers to kill like it is a video game. That works for a while, until they come back with PTSD, turn inside and don't want to talk to anyone about the horrors that have messed them up. IBM supplied the tally machines for Hitler. The Bush/Walker family financed him.

WAr machine training is a way of life here now.

It starts from childhood with the X-box and continues on through learning to answer to bells and whistles in government schools and not question authority. Jobs are scarce as the economy is destroyed so we end up with the perfect volunteer military.