Water Heater Question; Tank Type

[MountainDon]

I have never had a water heater tank leak. I believe in preemptive replacements. We are pondering what to replace the present water heater with and I became curious about what others do.  I can remember my parents scrambling to replace a water heater that had sprung a leak when I was growing up. It didn't matter much back then as their heater/tank was in the unfinished basement near a sewer drain. Ours is located in a closet surrounded by rooms.

Just to head off the questions about changing to a tankless we do not want to. Why? Because the distance from the heater to the bedroom baths then causes water waste as the cold water in the piping has to be run down the drain until warm arrives. The present setup uses a recirculation pump and well insulated piping. A timer runs at preset times and we have truly instant hot water within those windows of commonly used times.

I saw a hybrid tankless/tank heater on This Old House once. It had a 3 gallon or so sized tank with a recirculation pump combined with a tankless style burner / heater core assembly. But I've also found bad reviews on the electronic controls. A.O.Smith made a similar item for a couple of years and has discontinued it; and I don't know why.  So it seems the options are limited for situations with longer piping runs.

Anyhow we are at 13 years and 7 months with a so-called 12 year 40 gallon natural gas fueled heater and looking at replacing on our schedule, not the present heaters schedule. 

If anyone has any better ideas on what heater setup can work and not waste water I'd like to hear. This is a desert and water is not cheap as well as it being a shame to pour perfectly good water down the drain.

[rick91351]

I have found in our area lots and lots of water heaters are electric and get replaced because of scale not leakage.  Rule of thumb here if the bottom element here goes out replace the water heater.  Why?  Because you battle removing it.  Then you replace it and the bottom of the tank is so calcified it will take the new element out within a year.  Then six months after that.  So toss and replace is the rule around here.

[Danfish]

My experience with all the new gas-fired water heaters, tank and tankless has not been good.  Electronic controls and blowers frequently fail.  Replacement parts are expensive and may be slow in coming.  That's why I stick to the old fashion, naturally aspirated gas units.  All my old fashion units have only failed due to sediment build up and many after 20 years of operation.

If the point of use is some distance from the heater, many people find the tankless units take too long to provide hot water at that point.

A tankless unit might be satisfactory for a small cabin with limited piping runs and infrequent use!

[Rob_O]

If anyone has any better ideas on what heater setup can work and not waste water I'd like to hear. This is a desert and water is not cheap as well as it being a shame to pour perfectly good water down the drain.

Not sure what your question is. Sounds like you have an effective setup, why change it?

[MountainDon]

Not sure what your question is. Sounds like you have an effective setup, why change it?

I do not want to; just threw that out there in case there is something I am missing.

My gut feeling is to stay with the old fashioned type we have. The step up to a unit with electronic ignition costs hundreds more and the savings in gas may not be realized for 8 years or so.

[Huge29]

I am with Rob on this one, if it aint broke...  Gas is so cheap and will likely continue to be into the fairly distant future.  With natural gas setups you will never ever recover the investment on a tankless that is worth buying, not the cheap ones, but the ones that actually work that are usually closer to $900 or so.  Some of the tankless require larger gas lines that make them even less logical.  i am with you on the preemptive strike idea.  My neighbors did not realize they had a problem until their gas bill came in at $250 one month in summer, compared to $14 normally.  It had a huge leak, so it was firing 100% of the time for a solid month essentially.  It was about 12 years old and ours had gone out just a week previous.  That way you can do it when it is convenient for you rather than have a rush job at an inconvenient time.  I would also stick with the basics. 

[lobster]

about not wasting water, couldn't you have a small recirculator type pump under the sink, activated by a push button, and when on, it simply pumps water from the hot supply pipe to the cold supply pipe.

when you want hot water you first push this button for a few seconds (you will soon learn the correct amount of time) until the hot water is there at the sink, then stop pressing the button and use the hot water without wasting any.

also see http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=water_heat.pr_demand_hot_water

[Squirl]

What do I do or what should I do?

In the past I, and many others I have known, have waited.  Sometimes with disastrous results.  One time the heater was in a closet and it leaked when no one was home for the weekend.  (Isn't that always the way it goes.)  It flooded the floors for half the building and they all had to be replaced. 

I am now of the opinion the scrambling, time off work, cold showers, and possible damage, don't add up to savings of the time you get past the expected life.  With full disclosure of course, you can even sell the working old heater to someone willing to take the risk or for a good scrap price.  The example above may be applicable because you spend extended times away from home.

[MountainDon]

What do I do or what should I do?....................

Ain't that the truth! 

One thing that should be done that is pretty much never done is inspecting and changing the anode rod. I know I should but do not. I don't because the installation does not have sufficient vertical clearance to remove the standard anode. Lots of labor involved.

I have that solved when I install a new heater. There are segmented anodes available that only require 12" clearance above the heater. Perfect for our 18".
~~~~~~

........... The example above may be applicable because you spend extended times away from home.

When we did our PB re-pipe we had a nice solid ball valve installed in an easy access hole in a closet wall. Whenever we leave the house for any overnight purpose we close it and turn down the water heater to minimum.

[DaveOrr]

Ain't that the truth! 



When we did our PB re-pipe we had a nice solid ball valve installed in an easy access hole in a closet wall. Whenever we leave the house for any overnight purpose we close it and turn down the water heater to minimum.

My house runs off trucked water into an onsite water tank.
When I go away for more than a day I turn off the water pump and flip the breaker on the water heater.

Had the heater go on me a couple of winters ago.
Luckily I was at home at the time and there was no damage because of it.

[Don_P]

Our electric is down in the crawl next to a 4" drain and is over 20 years old so I'll wait till it leaks. In new work now we put them in a pan with a drain, the popoff is piped down below the rim of the pan as well.

[markert2523]

I'm getting close to plumbing and have been considering this one:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Marathon-85-Gallon-Tall-4500-Watt-Lifetime-Electric-Water-Heater-MR85245/202584261#.UoQpk4120oY

I like the idea of the plastic tank.

[rick91351]

Back before the RV life and we had a real house.  We left for the day to came home to a basement with water.  So because of that if we were leaving and not returning for even a day or two I would shut off the water and drop the breaker on the water heater. 

Now that we are getting a new house built we did make arrangements to be able to drain and winterize pretty quickly and easy so I think and hope....

[Native_NM]

I live in NAA - same general area as you.  I drain mine on a regular basis.  I think that is more important than anything regardless of what you decide. 

I did the backflush once with CLR and ended up in the dog house, so now I just drain.  Screw a garden hose on and drain. 

[Don_P]

a quick google, the cites are from the plumbing code. Draining periodically helps get some of the crud out of the bottom. I have had the boiler drain fail to close after that because of crud in the valve though.

From Question: Water heater drain pan - InterNACHI Inspection Forum http://www.nachi.org/forum/f22/question-water-heater-drain-pan-70976/#ixzz2l07gdKAO

504.7 Required pan. Where water heaters or hot water storage tanks are installed above the ground floor space, in attics or ceiling areas, or within the habitable space, the tank or water heater shall be installed in a galvanized steel or other metal pan of equal corrosion resistance having a minimum thickness of 24 gage, 0.0276 inch (0.70 mm). Electric water heaters shall be installed in a metal pan as herein required or in a high-impact plastic pan of at least 0.0625 inch (1.59 mm) thickness.


504.7.1 Pan size and drain. The pan shall be not less than 1.5 inches (38 mm) deep and shall be of sufficient size and shape to receive all dripping or condensate from the tank or water heater. The pan shall be drained by an indirect waste pipe having a minimum diameter of 0.75 inch (19 mm). Piping for safety pan drains shall be of those materials listed in Table 605.4.

504.7.2 Pan drain termination. The pan drain shall extend full-size and terminate over a suitably located indirect waste receptor or floor drain or extend to the exterior of the building and terminate not less than 6 inches (152 mm) and not more than 24 inches (610 mm) above the adjacent ground surface.

This is the 2007 code with the 2009 supplement

[MountainDon]

Re:  valve getting clogged.   Use a ball valve; best chance of crud washing through and best chance of cleaning if something does get stuck.

Re: the drain pans. Some homes like ours and many in the neighborhood are designed poorly when it comes to water heater placement. Ours is in a closet with the furnace. That closet is not on an outside wall, it is surrounded by living space. There is no basement, no crawl; it is on a slab. There is no place for the water to be easily drained to.

Fortunately for us we no longer have flooring that water can damage. It is all ceramic tile everywhere. No fancy rugs either. But if I install a pan when I replace the present water heater there is no drain to use. I'll need to install a sump pump and run the drain line up into the attic and cut into a plumbing vent line. That is how the condensate from the A/C unit is handled. There is a copper pipe (3/4") that runs up and out the side wall for the water heater pressure/temperature relief valve.

[Native_NM]

Run a garden hose out the door or window and let it run. 

[MountainDon]

Run a garden hose out the door or window and let it run.

No, I wasn't clear on my issue. The idea behind the drain pan is to catch and get rid of any water from leaks. That is simple(r) when the heater is in a basement or a garage. Can't leave a hose running across the kitchen floor all the time. Works for periodic draining but that's all. 

[Don_P]

There is color coordinated duct tape 

That's a pretty expensive backup system for potentially zero use. A plugged pan with a water sensing alarm that'll alert you if water hits it? Hmm, have the alarm throw a solenoid to cut supply water and a relay to kill the power to the heater. Shoot there goes another million dollar invention 

[MountainDon]

There is color coordinated duct tape 

The whole replacement water heater thing makes me crazy.  According to the local building dept and the state regulatory and licenses division I am supposed to get a permit for installing a replacement. No, not get a permit... pay them a fee and incidentally receive a permit.  And somehow make the drain pan drain someplace other than on the kitchen floor. I have thought about the water alarm. Those are fairly cheap and easy to get. I'll probably get one and stick it in the pan with a plug in the drain hole. Everything was fine until somebody decided to rewrite the rules.

Note of interest...  I have talked with a retired plumber on the street. He has the original tank that the house came with when built in '85. He has inspected the anode rod every 2 - 3 years and changed the rod a few times. He moved the heater to the garage soon after buying the house to make that easy and to head off any possible leaking damage. He has a check list hanging on it with all the dates of inspecting and rod changing listed. More organized than most folks.

He thinks I should buy a 6 year tank and get buy the segmented anode rod and put it in before I install it. Then check it on a schedule. Sounds like a plan.

[Native_NM]

No, I wasn't clear on my issue. The idea behind the drain pan is to catch and get rid of any water from leaks. That is simple(r) when the heater is in a basement or a garage. Can't leave a hose running across the kitchen floor all the time. Works for periodic draining but that's all.

I understand now.  When we got our new heater we went with the pan.  It has a plastic drain on the front which won't work in our case, either.  I think the benefit of the pan is to catch the drips that precede the flood.  I think they probably leak a little before they leak a lot. If the heater is on wood and it develops a slow leak it can cause some damage over time.  Hopefully you'll notice it before it fails completely.

[Don_P]

I agree, it is one more opportunity to avoid damage even if the pan is not drained. It takes monitoring which most of us aren't good at but is still better than nothing.

If the inspector is doing his job... he should be checking for support and anchorage of mechanical devices, another change you'll find in the mechanicals chapter. I've been in a crawlspace where a gas fired unit was sitting on loose blocks, had tipped to the point where the flue gasses were spilling into space under the floor rather than going up the flue. (and then I met the black widow nest under there  ) Seismic is the major concern there but not the only one. Also if the house is tightened up a forced draft unit makes more sense because it becomes easier to lose the ability to naturally draft and again flue gasses can end up inside with the occupants... and thus the reason for a CO detector. In smaller tight houses especially this can be a very real concern.

[rick91351]

There is color coordinated duct tape 

That's a pretty expensive backup system for potentially zero use. A plugged pan with a water sensing alarm that'll alert you if water hits it? Hmm, have the alarm throw a solenoid to cut supply water and a relay to kill the power to the heater. Shoot there goes another million dollar invention 

Yep 10-4 on the color coordinated duct tape..... I bought a roll of cammo Gorilla Tape.  Set it down somewhere and now I cant find it.......

[MountainDon]

No mention here for restraints, yet.   We are in a seismic C zone and the IRC version used here only calls for restraints in D1 and higher.    We have a 6 inch fresh air duct feeding combustion air to the utility closet.

We've considered a new tank with forced venting / combustion air but decided against it so far. Unless you get a very upper scale version they are only about 4% more efficient than the one I have my eye on. And it is hundreds more in purchase price. Then they go up from there.