Did you install your own septic?

[Erin]

just curious about the general consensus around here.  

So?  Which is it?
"You bet.  I do everything myself."
Or
"Are you nuts?!  There're some times the pros are well worth their money"

[glenn-k]

No reason not to if you take the time to understand what it is you are doing, and take time to do it correctly.

Some building departments won't let you do it yourself but that doesn't mean that you aren't capable.  

I am a general contractor and do them for other people sometimes,  but a straight normal system shouldn't be a problem for a DIY'er.  One of our members even did an engineered system himself.  

[Bouncer]

I did one. Wasn't to hard. Its like Glenn said take your time and do it right.
Kevin

[MB25ACRES]

I have the health Department coming to My land at 11:15 am tommarow for a site evaluation so I will get to see if he wants the house where I do. I noticed on the permit they had a space for name of installer. so far I have not put anything on that line so far. I am trying to decide the same thing. I am going to ask about Infiltrator leach fields. I would like to do mine myself but will see if they allow it. good Luck Mike

[Amanda_931]

I--

have never run a backhoe

don't much want to rent one and learn on that

ditto dump truck--don't know quite who to ask about getting chert (fill) for the project either.

am perfectly dreadful with transit and levels

since a good backhoe guy with a good helper will take most of a day to install a septic tank

I think I'll let them get to it.

I do know where to get a septic tank locally.  Which reminds me, I could go talk to them about water tanks.

[glenn-k]

Infiltrators are the easiest.  I put them in with a laser - set grade - dig the trench a few inches extra wide - level the bottom - interlock them over the last one as you go - shade the dirt in over them - inspection pipes in the end then cover them up --- inlet end gets fed equally from the D box - put water inside the D box and set it on wet cement to level the holes exactly so all fields get the same amount of water.

[MB25ACRES]

Glenn is the infiltrator sections expensive. how does the feet of infiltrator compare to normal lines 1foot infiltrator to 8ft reg also from what I have seen do you put gravel in the bottom or no? Thanks Mike

[glenn-k]

The infiltrators cost about the same as regular pipe - labor and rock.  No rock is required.

Amazing as it may seem, the county health inspector will make rules up that contradict each other without even thinking about what is going on.  With rock he says that it must be mostly 1 1/2 inch or a bit  larger for the bacteria colonies to have enough surface area to grow on - smaller rock has more area but he doesn't understand that.  The bacteria is microscopic and any rock would seem as a giant to it.

But here come infiltrators -- no rocks, and since you bought the infiltrators from a government approved company who has spent thousands to prove that they work, the poor bacteria have to be re-educated to understand that they will work just fine even without rocks. :-/

I think the last set of infiltrators with 4 ends and two 100 foot runs  cost me around $1250 last year.  1500 gallon concrete septic tank delivered and dropped in the hole by the tank company is about $1000 depending on location.  About $30 for a D box.  A couple hundred dollars for solid pvc sewer pipe between the tank and D box and min 5 feet solid to the leach field runs is  about it.  

Solid lines run 1/4" per foot slope down and infiltrators set from level to maybe a couple inches downhill over the entire run.

[John_C]

So it's easier to reeducate the bacteria than the inspector?  

[desdawg]

The first rule of construction is that you have to understand inspectors. For instance do you know the difference between a building inspector and God? Correct answer: God doesn't think he is a building inspector.

[Daddymem]

Common misconception.  Actually the rock is there for temporary storage and even dispersal and more importantly air space.  The bugs live on the interface between rock and the soil around the trench or in the case of the infiltrators along the boundary of the units and the soil (biomat).  

[Erin]

I--
have never run a backhoe
don't much want to rent one and learn on that
ditto dump truck--don't know quite who to ask about getting chert (fill) for the project either.
am perfectly dreadful with transit and levels
since a good backhoe guy with a good helper will take most of a day to install a septic tank
I think I'll let them get to it.

I haven't run a backhoe either, but my husband seems to be the official water-guy for the ranch we're on.  He's technically a cowboy, but for some reason he's also the plumber.  Not only has he run a back hoe far more often than he'd like, he also is pretty adept at digging up, replacing, and running new water lines.  (With center pivot irrigation, we have more plumbing issues than just the houses)
I figure a septic is going to be a bit more complicated than that, but haven't really done my research yet, either.

The first rule of construction is that you have to understand inspectors. For instance do you know the difference between a building inspector and God? Correct answer: God doesn't think he is a building inspector.

If we build in the county in which we currently live (which is the hope!), there are no inspections for anyone unless you're building down by the river in the flood plain.

[glenn-k]

Thanks, Daddymem.  I thought he was missing something somewhere.  I kind of assumed it was something like that as both systems worked.  Seems the infiltrators will store a lot more effluent for processing without the rocks taking up the space.

Erin - if he can keep one of those giant irrigators going, run a backhoe and is willing to study up a little, he can do a septic system.  After all he is a man. :-/

PS --- I was just kidding around -- I'm not really a big headed, unfeeling, uncaring sexist.  Really.  Don't beat me up, please.  We have many very capable women on this forum and Heather -when 17 proved what women are capable of.

[MB25ACRES]

I had my meeting today and they are drawing my sight plan this week. I can pick up my permit next week. well and septic permit 150.00 total. I have included my emails to the state and apparently unless I do it before January 07 I can not do it myself unless I pass a state exam. I do not know if all states are going to this or not. I also got an update from the health department, they have changed the rules if you get an aproved site drawing for your septic system you get until 2010 to install. permit is only good for 1 year but as long as you get site map approved, and by the way they are the ones drawing it. I will get my permit soon. but if something goes wrong it will already be approved. so I could get a new one under old rules until 2010. My health department will no longer aprove anything but a mound after jan 07, unless you have aproved site map.
So make sure you find out what your health department is doing so that if you need a site map aproved you can before you make a $16,000 mistake Mike
No, even if you have the permit you would need to take the exam in 07 to install, but the system design would be based on the current rules not the new if you get the permit in 06.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Subject: Re:



I should have my permit in the next week. If I have the permit before Jan 07 can I still install it in 07 myself without taking the exam. thanks Mike

Subject:

Before I address your questions you need to be aware that the sewage rules for Ohio will change on Jan. 1 2007. In either case if a home owner wishes to install their own system they may – before Jan. 07 check to be sure the local health dept. has no restrictions – after Jan. 07 the home owner may install a system for their primary residence after having taken a statewide exam administered by the Operator Training Committee for Ohio.



You may install any of the various chamber products if the soils on your lot are suitable. It must be installed in accordance with manufacturer's instruction and sized as per the health department requirements. Be certain to discuss with the local health department if their approval will have an expiration date, in the event you do not get a permit before Jan. 1, 2007.

[Erin]

PS --- I was just kidding around -- I'm not really a big headed, unfeeling, uncaring sexist.  Really.  Don't beat me up, please.  We have many very capable women on this forum and Heather -when 17 proved what women are capable of.

**chuckle**

Not to worry. He readily admits that I'm the carpenter in our house.  If it requires a finer touch than a chainsaw you don't want him anywhere near the project.     
But he's definately a pretty good amateur plumber (and electrician for that matter)

[tc-vt]

I installed an Infiltrator system from perc test to installation myself.  I think I paid around $30 for each chamber from a building supplier that was unloading them and no longer going to carry them.  I put in 4 lines, each line having 7 chambers.  If you are doing your own septic tank, consider a shallow tank since it is an easier hole to dig with a small rental machine.

The d-box outlets can be equalized with Polylok Equalizers, plastic covers that have an  eccentrically placed hole in them.

http://www.polylok.com/products_details.asp?Product_ID=15

The ones on the above web page are fancier than the ones I got from  my concrete supplier who sold and delivered the tank.  The Roto-Flow shown on the page below is more like the simple one I installed.

http://www.polylok.com/products_list.asp?prod_subcat=Distribution%20Boxes%20and%20Accessories
All you do is turn the covers until the holes for all of the pipes leading to the different leach lines are all at the same level.  It eliminates the need to drive yourself crazy trying to get the d-box level.  I am only using two of the four leach lines of Infiltrators right now.  Next spring I'll open the d-box and turn these caps to switch to different lines and 'rest' the other two.

Learning to operate a backhoe or mini excavator is easier than you would think.  Of course, a contractor will be faster because of more skill and a bigger machine and a large dump truck at the ready to fetch quarry materials.

Things have changed here in VT since I built mine.  An engineer is required to design all systems now.  I think anyone can install an approved engineered design.  The days of burying VW Buses for septic tanks are gone.

Tom

[BuckiSchloo]

I'm mostly a lurker   and don't post much but thought I could chime in on this.

Background:
I have a cottage on a small lake in Midwestern Michigan. It has been in the family for over 45 years. Dad and grandpa built a small 16 X 18 cottage mainly for day use and an occasional overnights. At the time they lived 35 miles away. One room, 4 beds and an electric range. No indoor plumbing, pitcher pump and an outhouse up the hill.

A few years later my dad got transferred first to Indianapolis and then Columbus Ohio, but he kept the lake house. I inherited the cottage when he passed away.  I currently live in Columbus Ohio, 350 miles away but still go up as often as I can. My fondest memories as a kid are from spending our vacations there. My wife and kids have learned to love this place as much as I do.

Over the years my wife and I have been slowly making improvements. We now have hot and cold running water and a sink inside. We hope to add on someday but are moving very slowly because of the cost.

Septic system:

The city has come to the country, no more adding on without a real potty. The cottage is very close to the lake, so the drain field had to be placed at least 100 feet away from the lake's edge. Unfortunately the back of our lot rises about 35 feet above where the cottage is. The system the health department approved involved a catch basin below the cottage with a grinder/lift pump lifting sewage to the septic tank at the back of the lot.

I am a die hard do-it-yourselfer, not just because I am frugal but because I enjoy the work and the sense of accomplishment. Life is not the destination, it is the journey. I looked at installing the septic system myself. I did a lot of research using the internet and many books.

I had every intention of installing my own system. I drew a plan, made a list of the needed materials, got prices from various suppliers. I found a really helpful supplier in Southern Michigan willing to help me and answer all of my questions. He was very supportive and had the best deal on materials.  

My life long friend from the lake and I got to the point of clearing the site for the drainfield. As we were working, we talked about the system. My friend asked if I had gotten a price to have the system installed. He said he had seen a number of them installed in the area and they usually were in and out in a day. We started talking about how long it would take to install. Renting a backhoe, learning to use it, hauling gravel, picking up the tank and materials and getting the inspections. Just for curiosity, I decided to talk to the local installer to see how much he would charge.

As it turned out, I made the decision to have it installed. The final cost was about $2500. My estimate for the parts,  1500 gallon plastic tank, risers, drainpipe, geo-textile and what ever else to do it myself was $1200. I still had to rent a backhoe and have gravel delivered. We figured it would take us a few weekends to get the trenches dug, the pipe laid properly, the gravel moved and the field backfilled. I would also have to survive the scrutiny of the Health Department inspector, she would want to check all of my work to make sure it all conformed to the strict county requirements. I felt that for the $800 dollars or so that I would have saved in the end, it was not worth the days of work involved. I could save my time and labor for better suited projects. The gas alone to run up all of those weekends would have eaten away at my savings. The one thing I did learn is that there are some things that may be worth hiring out in some cases. (I can't believe I just said that, my wife would be proud). It is always worth finding out how much that would cost.

The installer was indeed in and out in a day with a line run down to the cottage ready for hookup. The inspector never came out, this installer has been around for years and is well known by the health department, they trust the installer's work and rarely make him wait for an inspection.

Bad as I wanted to install the system myself, it just did not make sense for the money I would have saved. I am glad I did the research and priced the materials. I now have a good understanding of how it all works and I know what I paid for.

The next step was a new well. My old well not far enough from the drain field and the septic permit required the well to be moved. I did attempt to drill my own well using a Hydradrill this summer, that story will have to wait for another post (Let me know if you want to hear about it).

With the new well and septic in, we now look forward to planning our addition based on the Country Plans 1.5 story cottage. That may still be a few years. In the mean time, we are enjoying what we have.

[Amanda_931]

BassLakeBucki wrote:

...attempt to drill my own well using a Hydradrill this summer

That might be all we need to know.

But if it's a good story, we'd love to hear it.

[tc-vt]

I read about the Hydradrill several times in the years of research before I started building.  I'd be curious to hear how it was to use and ab out your experience with it.  

I also remember reading about someone from Michigan who was able to drive a wellpoint into what they described as sandy soils in their area of the state.  I think they said they were in the Canadian shield with corse shallow soils.

Tom

[glenn-k]

I'd also like to hear the Hydradrill story.  I'm a well driller.  Is it true that anybody can do it?

[BuckiSchloo]

Hydradrill Well Drilling experience:

Since a few were interested, here is my well drilling experience, sorry it is so long:

After my septic was in, I was required to move my well farther away from the drain field to meet the required 100 foot separation. I discussed drilling my own well with the health department inspector. She discouraged me but said Michigan allowed homeowners to drill their own well. She gave me a copy of the regulations and said as long as I meet the requirements, she would approve it. I did a lot of research and read every book available on well drilling. The Military has their well drilling manual online for free if you search hard enough (somebody on ebay is selling it).  Michigan also has drilling logs of all wells drilled in the last 25 years available either on the web or upon request. I was able to get well logs from my surrounding area so I would know what I would be drilling and how deep I might have to go. Wells around me ranged 75' to 100' near the lake and 200' to 300' up on the hill behind my property (same water table, just more sand on top). The health department indicated they would like to see a well of at least 75'. My current well was 25' deep 2" galvanized pipe that was driven (My dad told me the old guy used a divining rod to find water). It has worked well for the last 40 some years. My friend and I pulled the pipe up once to replace the screen and point and manually re-drove it in about a day and a half with a weighted T type driver, lifting it and dropping it.

Two inch driven pipe wells are no longer acceptable for drinking water. Wells must be minimum 5" steel or PVC casing with grouting. The other challenge was that the well had to be next to the lake and my property slopes pretty steeply down to the lake from the drive at the top. The only way I have to get equipment down to the lake is to use a two track my neighbor has on his property. The two track passes between two nice large trees at most 12 feet apart. A friend of a friend well driller I talked to early on, took a look and said he didn't thing he could get his rig down there. He said I should look for a driller with a smaller rig. After hearing how much wells were costing and the issue with getting a rig down there, I thought using a hydra-drill would be a good option.

I thought since I was drilling in sand it wouldn't be that hard, here in Ohio we are on limestone and I wouldn't have attempted it. A new Hydra drill was more than I wanted to invest and although it took a while,  I found a used Hydra drill on Ebay. Most Hydra drills for sale are out west in CA or WA. Having it shipped was too expensive. Mine came from Washington DC, this worked in my favor. My wife's sister and her husband live there. My brother in law picked it up for me and stored it until we went for a visit a few months later. I was the only bidder, guess no one else is drilling their own well in our nation's capital.

The rig needed some TLC but I got about 200' of drill stem, a number of bits, a mud pump and all kinds of other accessories. The previous owner had drilled 3 wells of 50 feet in depth. My machinest friend in Michigan welded the pump casing that was cracked and made me a custom 8.5 inch reaming bit so I could do my 5" casing. Hydra drill's largest bit is a 6" reamer.

Well drilling suppliers pretty much won't sell to non-licensed drillers. I located a supply house near my cottage and went to pick up casing, well screen, drilling mud, pit-less adapter and other supplies. They told me they couldn't sell to me unless I had an account. To get an account, I had to have a driller's license. I went round and round with them, telling them what I was doing, all they said was sorry. Fortunately, at the counter was a pump installer who had heard my dilemma. He told me that as long as I paid for the materials, I could run them through his account. Finally I got what I needed. Another challenge, well casing comes in 20' lengths, fortunately I had brought my boat trailer. Also, PVC casing is very expensive compared to regular pvc pipe you see at Home Depot, but the regulations require certified casing.

Drilling attempt #1 – Had a week of vacation, hoped to drill the well and be done.

It took me the first day to set up the rig, dig the mud pits and mix the mud. I waited to the second day to start drilling. Once you start, you either have to finish or pull allof the drill stem up, otherwise you chance a collapse and get your drill stem stuck for good. My drill stems are 5' in length. Each stem is installed and removed using pipe wrenches. Any time your stem gets stuck, you have to pull it up to a point where it turns again before you can continue. It is important to keep the mud flowing. I got mine stuck a few times, made me pretty nervous since you don't know how you will ever get it out. This is pretty hard work after a while. (The novelty wears off quickly).

contiued next post.

[BuckiSchloo]

Hydra drill drilling continued.

First twenty feet or so was like drilling through butter, I kept thickening the mud since I had learned that the sides of the bore hole in sand would be collapsing causing the most problems. Otherwise sand was pretty easy to drill through. When I got to about 30+ feet I encountered a rock, baseball size. The mud pump just wouldn't bring it up. I probably churned for a couple of hours and the tower would shake. After ten hours of drilling I finally got past the rock and pulled up the drill stem to call it a day. Next day I lost about 5 feet to cave in. Drilled the whole next day having to pull up the stem a number of times to get it un-stuck. Got to about 42 feet, hit some gravel meaning I was into a water layer. My goal was to get to 75' so I kept going. At this point my progress became very slow, looking back I think I had reached the limit of the mud pump (5 hp centrifugal) creating enough pressure to bring the cuttings up. The rig shook a lot and drilling in the gravel was very hard and slow. I had started with a 2" bit but my bore hole at the top was now 7" – 8" because of cave in. After this, I ran out of week. Friday night is when all of the weekenders (trunk slammers) arrive and I did not want to drill Saturday so as to attract too much attention. I covered the mud pits and well hole and went home Sunday.

Drilling attempt #2  - I went back a couple of weeks later to finish. I had four days off. Started drilling again, I had again lost 15' or so to cave in so I was at 25' again. Had to mix a new batch of mud. I got back to 40' and drilling got hard again in the gravel. Half way through the second day, my drilling motor stopped. It was a 5 hp Tecumseh, I spent the next three hours trying to get it running with no luck. I am pretty good with small engine repair but just couldn't get it going. Being tight on vacation time, I went home early the next day to save my time off for my next drilling attempt.

At this point I was still very committed to see this through, I decided  I would buy a new engine to make sure I could get this done. I was going to save a few thousand dollars so what's another $150.  I re-powered the Hydradrill with a brand new 6.5 OHV Briggs and Stratton on a deal on the web. I had to modify the cradle some and it just barely fit. I also put a new clutch in it just to be sure. I have to say Deep Rock, the maker of Hydra drill was very helpful and had all the parts I needed. I also got a new bit as the sand had worn nearly all of the blades off of the one I had

Drill attempt # 3 Went back with the brand new engine running like a charm. Started drilling again. I was at 25 feet again. I had a lot of problems with cave in and the stem getting stuck. I had to pull the stem up and start over again a number of times. By mid day of the second day I was back to forty feet. I wasn't concerned that the bore hole at the top was nine inches at this point, this meant I would not  have to ream it much to take the casing and tremie pipe. At forty feet my progress stopped again, I just couldn't get deeper and the stem was getting stuck often.  Pulling it up and putting it back was pretty discouraging at this point.

After day three I decided to re-evaluate my options. If I did not live 350 miles away I would have kept going, but I had made three good attempts and had sunk enough money in this venture. I finally decided to surrender and called a driller, another friend of a friend, 6th generation driller. I discussed the access issue with him, he came out, took a look and assured me he had a rig that would fit down there. He also agreed to use the casing and other supplies I had and credit me. He uses the same supplier and agreed to return what he did not need and take that off my bill as well.

As it turned out, we were again on vacation the week he showed up to drill the well. He showed up with a six tandem wheel drive state of the art drilling rig. I still didn't believe he could get it down there. He said he measured and it would squeak between the trees, once the mirrors were folded in. He got down there, it took them about five hours to drill 96' feet, install the casing and grout it. I was pleased to see that when he reached 40 feet (his drill stems are 20' each) the whole rig shook and it took him a while to power through the gravel as well. He even said that that layer was a chore to get through. Of course his rig is all hydraulic and loads the drill stem like a pistol revolver with just a few buttons and levers. I was totally impressed when he was able to back the whole thing back up the hill between the trees and not get stuck.

All said and done, the well cost me $5000, this includes a frost proof spigot and a 20 gallon water tank buried next to the well, all set up and ready to go. I supplied my own pump. I hope to re-sell my Hydra drill and mud pumps for nearly what I have in them, let me know if anyone is interested, I will supply pictures and information. If I am lucky and sell the Hydra drill for a fair price, I should only be out a few hundred dollars and some vacation days. What an adventure!

Again, I am glad I tried it. Some times you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you. I now know a great deal about my water well and would have saved about $3000 if it had worked out. I do have to say that the Hydra drill is probably not big enough to drill for a 5" inch casing. It would work fine for a 50 foot, 2'' irrigation well

[Amanda_931]

A lot more informative than the one-sentence version.

Glad you posted it.

[glenn-k]

Great try, BassLakeBucki.  Rocks are always a bear even with a bigger rig.  I did cable tool drilling - (or percussion) but also was around a few of the rotaries and a few oil drilling rigs.  Another thing that could happen when you hit the rocks - and maybe water is that your mud would thin out or possibly you could even lose circulation in a good water zone.  If the rocks were cemented with limestone they could be hard to go through and if loose they aren't any easier.

Great story and again great try.  You put much more into it that most would have and the knowledge you gained will be with you for the rest of your life.  That's not failure.  Its a learning experience.

[Freeholdfarm]

Thank you for posting the hydradrill story.  We (my now-ex husband and I) bought a hydradrill many years ago, intending to use it to drill our own well when we bought property.  Then, when he got out of the Air Force and we were preparing to move back to Alaska, my Dad told us that the hydradrill wouldn't work in Tok, where we were going, because the 'soil' was uncompacted gravel down probably a couple hundred feet, and the hole would just cave in -- the same problem you had with your hole.  So we sold the drill before we moved.  I'm now contemplating moving back up there in a few years more or less, to property that will be probably 150 miles from the nearest well drilling rig, and had been wondering if a hydradrill would work in that location.  After your story, I suspect I'll just have to grit my teeth and pay for a well driller -- or put in a roof collection system and a cistern, although it's an area that doesn't get a lot of rainfall.

Thanks again.

Kathleen