What would you have told Joe?

[RainDog]

Joe, your a dumbass.  Your obviously a successful man, living in a mcmansion in Austin.

muldoon, all of what you say is quite reasonable and I'm not inclined to argue against any of it...

EXCEPT...

I posit that his "manifesto" does not in reality indicate the true reasons for his actions. I see it only as representing an excuse that he, obviously in some cases correctly, felt people would be sympathetic toward.

Your statement quoted above illustrates that, in fact, he hadn't been beaten down beyond any normally reasoning person's ability to cope with.

Moreover, I conclude that the "understanding" we've seen expressed here and in comments across the web say more about the people commenting than it does anything else.

Were he to have claimed racial motivations for murder, we'd have seen racial supremacists cry out in sympathy. Had he claimed religious motive, we'd have seen religious fanatics express some solidarity as well. If misanthropy had been his excuse, we'd have seen the misanthropes chiming in.

Now, I'm not claiming that the above groups, nor those upset with certain government legislation and policies, have absolutely no legitimate grievances, I am simply stating that when he made the decision to murder others, he displayed such an appalling lack of character, morality, and critical thinking, due to nature, nurture, or whatever, that his "excuse" is rendered questionable at best, and more probably entirely moot. Especially considering that his standard of living was significantly higher than most Americans enjoy, which you quite correctly pointed out.

AND..

What I'm also saying is that in order to sympathize, to any degree, with his stated reasons, one must be dancing a bit too close to the same edge he tripped off.

There's no excuse whatsoever for what he did, in any way, shape, manner, or form. He was a bad egg.
 

[muldoon]

What I'm also saying is that in order to sympathize, to any degree, with his stated reasons, one must be dancing a bit too close to the same edge he tripped off.

Exactly
and it's everywhere, and will likely increase from here, what words of advice do you have for those people? 

[RainDog]

What I'm also saying is that in order to sympathize, to any degree, with his stated reasons, one must be dancing a bit too close to the same edge he tripped off.

Exactly
and it's everywhere, and will likely increase from here, what words of advice do you have for those people? 

Nothing.

I am not equipped to fix broken people. Any attempt I made could too easily lead to the opposite effect desired.

I would, however, advise careful, close, and continuing scrutiny of the individual in question by family, friends, coworkers, and anyone else in a position to do so.

[muldoon]

Rainddog, I am not trying to defend this man. 

I'll approach this topic from another direction, a few days ago a Rasmussen poll came out.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/february_2010/only_21_say_u_s_government_has_consent_of_the_governed

Only 21% Say U.S. Government Has Consent of the Governed.  Put another way, only 21% of the voters in this nation consent to what Washington is doing.  More ominously, 61% say the government does NOT have consent.  (18% are not sure).

This country is wind up like a coiled spring.  You are in denial if you cannot see that.  I wont fault you for it, most of the country has been in denial for a long time. 

The stages are denial -> anger -> bargaining -> acceptance.

People are going from denial into anger.   That is the real issue and the very real risk here, and one that is worth thinking about on a social level and mentally preparing for.  It's very possible your family, friends, coworkers will go through it as well or at least certainly be touched by the ripples of it.   

[RainDog]

 
muldoon, whether or not I share the views of the 61% cited, it is self-evident that people are getting upset. I do agree that in many cases the cards are stacked against the little guy.

It's up to people themselves to channel their anger into something productive.

Joe Stack lost all claim to reason or rhyme when he took it into his head to commit senseless murder. I think of a guy like that as a ticking time bomb which may or may not go off at any given moment no matter what happens.

I wasn't disagreeing with anything you've stated, per se, only the underlying premise that the IRS certainly had anything to do at all with his actions, despite his claim to the contrary.

He was a badly wired individual who bought a few post-mortem slaps on the back with his little line of BS, published on the web for precisely that purpose. That's all I'm sayin'.

[pagan]

RainDog,

So you're saying his targeting the IRS was incidental and that he could have just as easily gone after a rude neighbor, or the clerk at Starbucks who was consistently mean to him, etc. because he, Stack, was wired to blow up at something or someone.

[RainDog]

RainDog,

So you're saying his targeting the IRS was incidental and that he could have just as easily gone after a rude neighbor, or the clerk at Starbucks who was consistently mean to him, etc. because he, Stack, was wired to blow up at something or someone.

That's part of what I'm saying, that there's no real reason to believe his excuses at all. All the creeps of the world have their little excuses.

That he did what he did because he was a sociopath seems a much more reasonable assumption than to take him at his word.

PS: Sorry for all the edits. My family was flailing around the house like a bunch of lunatics trying to get ready for the day, and I could not for the life of me muster up the small bit of concentration it takes to write a cohesive sentence, much less THREE of them.  

[pagan]

RainDog,

Although I agree with you that there are some people who are predisposed for these violently antisocial attacks, rejecting their reasons is shortsighted. We have the benefit of hindsight and can step back and apply a stable logic they could not. Writing what we would have said to Stack, or any of the others who choose this path, is irrelevant and the reality is he probably still would have done what he did because his life had finally triggered the rage within him and nothing short of law enforcement intervention would stop him from leaving his mark. I'm sure he believed his reasons were just, what he wrote was the truth and that he felt he was dying a martyrs, or patriots, death.

[RainDog]

RainDog,

Although I agree with you that there are some people who are predisposed for these violently antisocial attacks, rejecting their reasons is shortsighted. We have the benefit of hindsight and can step back and apply a stable logic they could not. Writing what we would have said to Stack, or any of the others who choose this path, is irrelevant and the reality is he probably still would have done what he did because his life had finally triggered the rage within him and nothing short of law enforcement intervention would stop him from leaving his mark. I'm sure he believed his reasons were just, what he wrote was the truth and that he felt he was dying a martyrs, or patriots, death.

You're sure?

Suicide notes are often written in a bid for sympathy. Considering that, from all indications, his difficulties with the IRS were not in fact ruinous from any reasonable standpoint, I can't take his explanation at face value. He had some ties to tax protesters, and played the card he knew. Quite successfully, as we've seen.

I realize, of course, that my position is based in speculation, but in contemplating the basic immorality of his act, it's just as reasonable to assume contrivance as honesty, if not more so.

If I ever get caught committing a crime, I want you on my jury. I could make up some good stuff. Blame everyone but myself.

[RainDog]

 School Shooting Suspect Identified

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/24/colorado.school.shooting/index.html

I'm not sayin' this guy Eastwood is a HERO or anything, I just think we should reserve judgment until we find out whether his particular excuse lines up with our own personal bias.

/sarcasm off

See kinda where I'm comin' from?

[pagan]

I see where you're coming from, and I think you might have misunderstood me.

Actually, you wouldn't want me on a jury as I voted to convict the only time I had jury duty. If Stack had gone in the building with a firearm and killed a few people I would vote to convict him. An IRS audit and perceived persecution is not an adequate defense for murder. And Stack is a murderer.

Although I can understand where Stack was coming from I'm not saying Stack's a hero, what I'm saying is in his mind the injustices he'd endured by the IRS were real. This is why he felt justified in attacking the IRS building. He very well may have been cooking the books and the IRS investigation was justified, this is all speculation. He had the same problems in California that he had in Texas, so was it him or the IRS? We may never know.

[RainDog]

I see where you're coming from, and I think you might have misunderstood me.

Actually, you wouldn't want me on a jury as I voted to convict the only time I had jury duty. If Stack had gone in the building with a firearm and killed a few people I would vote to convict him. An IRS audit and perceived persecution is not an adequate defense for murder. And Stack is a murderer.

Although I can understand where Stack was coming from I'm not saying Stack's a hero, what I'm saying is in his mind the injustices he'd endured by the IRS were real. This is why he felt justified in attacking the IRS building. He very well may have been cooking the books and the IRS investigation was justified, this is all speculation. He had the same problems in California that he had in Texas, so was it him or the IRS? We may never know.

No, no. Sorry. That last post of mine wasn't addressed to you at all.

To you I was just sayin' that I don't see any real reason to believe anything Stack claims at all. He's forfeited his credibility entirely.

I went off on a couple of tangents simultaneously. My bad.

[pagan]

RainDog,

No problem. His credibility is certainly questionable, but until I see information rejecting his claims I take his letter at face value.

[Ndrmyr]

I suspect that Joe Stack had possessed a certain feeling of.....entitlement.  After all, he had educated himself, possessed a degree that is often a key to financial success, attempted a couple of business ventures, obtained some of the trappings of success. Still, others seemed to have more, perhaps much more. Better businesses, homes, planes, trips even wives. And when his business ventures proved unsuccessful, it seemed....unreasonable, for the IRS to expect taxation. Despite the fact that he may have lived a better life-style than 80% of the people in this country, maybe than 90% or 95% of the rest of the world.
Where Joe failed was in his small sampling. Had he compared himself to working man who doesn't get to write off his airplane, his car or his work boots, he might have had a different perspective.  A small world view leads to a distorted vision of reality. Joe Stack's reality was was strongly biased towards his unique set of circumstances. In the end....selfish beyond compare.  What thought of his wife and daughter left sobbing in front of their burning home.  What thought of the legacy he left. What thought of the hapless civil servant who had never heard of Joe Stack. While I don't wish to stand on the side of bloated excessive government, neither will I mourn the passing of Joe Stack, rather my sympathy extends to the innocent victims of his actions.

[RainDog]

In the end....selfish beyond compare.  

Yes. Good post.

[MountainDon]

I agree more with Ndrmyr than any other post made yet.

I believe he thought more of himself than his family and others. It did not seem rational to burn down his family's home contents if he had any love for them. But then I'm pretty sure he was not rational near the end.

[OlJarhead]

He was a murdering quack -- in my opinion -- however, sadly, books like Unintended Consequences warn about this sort of behavior from 'average everyday Americans' -- is it possible....maybe.

I've noticed that a lot of similar cases seem to be popping up -- fed building shootings etc -- and I wonder if the real problem isn't that people just don't understand that if you actually want change in government then you have to fire all of those who are there now and start over.  But, sadly, it's unlikely to happen becuase too many people are complacent and vote for 'their team' every time regardless of what their policies ere.

If I were faced with a Joe Stack I would tell them to relax, to stop that line of approach and to find a way to make a real difference -- like running for office or supporting the tea party movement (which is non-violent despite what the mainstream media might like you to think).

But it is unlikely he could have been stopped -- just as the Green River killer couldn't be stopped either, until he was caught anyway.

[pagan]

Saw in CNN today that the widow of the IRS worker Stack murdered is suing Stack's widow. Once again, lawyers making tons of money over other peoples' miseries.

Also read about a school in Rhode Island where all of the teachers at a "failing" school are being fired. I have said for years if you really want to change government you need to replace every elected official, all of their staff members, and all of the petty bureaucrats in government positions.

[RainDog]

But it is unlikely he could have been stopped -- just as the Green River killer couldn't be stopped

Suitable comparison, in some ways.

I was actually questioned by police in the Seattle Green River Killer investigation control center once.

No, not as a suspect. 

As a witness in an assault case. The Green River investigation, at that point, had temporarily run out of steam for lack of new evidence, and the room was used sometimes as a catch-all for other things.

[Squirl]

Saw in CNN today that the widow of the IRS worker Stack murdered is suing Stack's widow. Once again, lawyers making tons of money over other peoples' miseries.

More likely the widow is suing Stack's estate, not Stack's widow.  If he had a will and left nothing to his wife she would not be affected.  I doubt she would be affected anyway since Stack burned down the house and flew his private plane into a building.  What is left?