Water conservation

[glenn kangiser]

I like that style.

[MountainDon]

Here is a site that sells 3/way brass ball valve on line that would work.

Grand assortment of valves, there. However, I should have defined "nice" in my statement...
"I'd like to find a nice quarter turn ball valve that wouldn't look ugly."

Nice, as in something that will blend favorably with more or less conventional bath and kitchen faucets and shower controls. Wife approved. 

[Willy]

Here is a site that sells 3/way brass ball valve on line that would work.

Grand assortment of valves, there. However, I should have defined "nice" in my statement...
"I'd like to find a nice quarter turn ball valve that wouldn't look ugly."

Nice, as in something that will blend favorably with more or less conventional bath and kitchen faucets and shower controls. Wife approved. 

OK here is a nice one made by American Standard but you could use a cheaper brand of shower control. Just block off the tub opening or get one just for a shower head. Then have the feed go in the opening that would go to the head and the hot and cold would be your 3 way outlets. You can get some nice handles and leave off the chrome trim ring. Mark
http://www.hechinger.com/hardware/tools/818770163-american-standard-3-way-wall-rough-diverter-valves-1660-300.html

[MountainDon]

Sometimes I underestimate (overestimate) my wife.   

We're going to go with a regular ball valve with lever handle for the recirculation line...

[glenn kangiser]

That's a beauty, Don --- you saw our hose bib on Sassy's slipper tub. 

[MountainDon]

I did not notice that the first time around. Thanks to the efficient SMF search engine I had another look, enlarged the image and, yep that's a designer hose bib!


One of my alternate designs was to use an electric (12V) sprinkler valve with a push button actuated 555 timer.(dabbling in electronics is another hobby) .... but then K.I.S.S smacked me in the face and I decided less is more and broached the idea of a simple ball valve.... and that went over well.

I have a S/S ball valve I may use for the kitchen sink recirc valve. Blends in well with the chrome faucet and S/S sink.

We are going to be using an almost new looking bar sink as the kitchen sink; the one and only cabin sink actually.    (don't tell code enforcement  )

[glenn kangiser]

I'd never tell. 

[Willy]

Sometimes I underestimate (overestimate) my wife.   

We're going to go with a regular ball valve with lever handle for the recirculation line...

On your water system will you have a storage tank, pump and bladder tank to pressure with? I was wondering how you were going to recirculate the water? If there is no open tank storage system you would need a pump to move the water back into the hot water heater since it is all under the same pressure. I know you know this but mentioned it for others that were thinking of recirculating there hot water. Another way to do this is to insulate the hot water lines real well including the return line to the hot water heater. Then install a Hydronic Water Pump designed for the purpose and circulate the water real slowly. Then just circulate it right back to the hot water tank when you need to or put it on a timer for times you up and would need hot water.  This would work great if you did not have a cistrin tank to let the water go to with out using a pump. Mark

[MountainDon]

PA-Builder mentioned he used a shallow well pump to supply water from his large poly cistern tank of trucked in city water. NM_Shooter and I will be in a similar situation with hauling water to cistern tanks of smaller size.

Let me note that there is no plan for laundry facilities. This is a recreational cabin, not a permanent home. Even though we will spend most of the summer up in the mountains there are things that will take us back to the city every 1 - 2 weeks.

In my case I will have a outside poly tank of somewhere around 200 gallons. Water for that will be hauled by trailer mounted water tank. There will also be an inside tank of smaller size. I have a transfer pump to pump water from outside to inside. That's a manual job, no automation planned at this point. A shared or private well may be in the future.

I will be using a 24 VDC RV type pressure pump that will draw water from the inside tank to pressurize the cabin system. Most small RV's do not use a bladder tank at all; it's just another thing that has to be drained/winterized when freezing weather is encountered. Theory states that is hard on the pump. However in the 12 years we've owned it I've never replaced the pump. The previous owner (the original) told me he replaced the pump the year before he sold it to us, and that was because the body froze and split. The cabin water supply system will be very simple; the inside storage tank, a 6 gallon RV spark ignition propane water heater, a kitchen sink, a shower. The water heater will likely only be fired when we want a shower, as that's what we're used to in the RV. After years of RV'ing we find it better to warm hand washing and dish washing water in a pot/kettle on the propane stove.

When you're working in such a water conserving mode we hate to waste any water. We've been running water into a pot or two before showers. We use that later for one thing or another. We see the cabin as a big RV with the slideout permanently extended. No need to change our water use mode. The idea of one extra valve at point of use with a pipe running back to the storage tank will do away with the pots of water sitting around till a need arises for it. The pressure pump is the pump that will push the water back to the storage tank.

Frank may do something similar in the future. We both appreciate PA-Builder's idea as it beats water waste or using pots.

The low volume hydronic type pump would be out of the plans because of the low volume of electricity available in a solar self generated system. Every watt is as precious as water.

[Willy]

Just a thought but if you put in a steel tank with a one way flow valve from the feed side you could pressureize the tank with air from a little 12 vdc air pump. Charge up the tank and you would be good for as many gals the tank would hold. Not sure if it would take less power but it would give you more volume (GPM) when it is needed than a RV pump. Use the RV Pump to charge the tank up also is another way. No bladder and a clean water heater tank will hold a lot of water for storage. I use to get them for next to nothing from big hardware stores cause the outside was dented up and the tank was perfict inside. A electric one gives you all the nessasary openings to work from and easy to drain later. You could stash the tank in a attic spot ect out of site. One thing on the plastic tanks is to build a box for them to keep the sunlight from the tank and very little alge will grow in them. You can also bury the tank under ground too and put a access opening to it along with a fill pipe easy to get to by vehical. Mark

[PA-Builder]

Don,
Is that 24v DC RV pump similar to the Shurflo or Flojet (4406) (< $100) 12 v RV pumps ?   I was thinking of getting one of those 12v RV pumps as a backup pump if my AC power goes off, or if the shallow well pump system broke down while staying at the cabin.  Would that 12v RV pump pull water up 5' from my tank, then provide adequate pressure/volume through 1/2" copper for a shower, sink, etc. (nothing running at the same time) ?  Thanks.

[MountainDon]

My RV has a Flojet 4406, 12 VDC.    The spec sheet at the back of the manual says its good up to a 2.4 meter lift, approx 7.5 feet.

It's made in 12 or 24 VDC and 115 VAC models. The 24 VDC is harder to find but that's what I want as the cabin batteries will be series/paralleled for a 24 VDC system. The 24 VDC pump will save having to tap the battery bank for 12 VDC. The alternate would be a 24 VDC to 12 VDC converter, but that's just more complications.

3.2 GPM (US) and 22 to 35 PSI. IIRC it has 1/2 pipe fittings.

[PA-Builder]

Thanks Don.  I always prefer to trust someone who has actually used something instead of relying on the manufacturer's spec sheet and claims.

[glenn kangiser]

Here is PA's angle recirculating valve.  He sent me a pix.



How's it work, PA?  Happy with it?

[hnash53]

What alternatives are there for water in an area where there are 5 months of winter temps (Wyoming) and having to deal with freezing lines?

Of course, there is a well.  But have to bury and/or insulate underground piping into house from well.

What about an above-ground cistern that would hold a few hundred gallons?  Insulating pipe coming into cabin?

Thanks for your input.

Hal

[glenn kangiser]

Wouldn't an above ground cistern also freeze and break?

[MountainDon]

With five months of winter, there's no doubt it would freeze to my thinking.

I believe that's why back home in Canada the local water utility stored water in underground resevoirs. Nothing was located above ground.

[gandalfthegrey]

I have been doing a lot of research on the EarthShip construction and thier cisterns are underground. (Taos NM) about 8800 elevation.

http://www.earthship.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=23&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0