cabin requirements

[outhouse]

I recently read a cabin is an exception to a dwelling. Does anyone know how it is defined in terms of minimum requirements for CA/OR/NV?

[MikeT]

I think you need to get more specific both in terms of square footage and location (by county or city).  

I live in Portland, OR and am building on property I bought on the coast.  I made a mistake when I first began thinking about building one of John's plans and asked (the county) what I could do/build without a permit.  I was told that I could build a structure as long as it was less than 200 sf and less than 10 ft. tall.  So I used John's plans and began to frame a little house/builders cabin, 12 x 16.  Then folks complained and the county code enforcement office came by and put one of those awful "stop work" order signs on the property.  I came to find out that one can only build said  (accessory) structure if one already has a permit to build a primary residence.  Since I did not want to get into a fight with the county, I deconstructed said cabin/shed and went through the permitting process for a primary residence which I am now building.

My story is a long-winded explanation of why I believe you need to get more specific in your terms-- I doubt there is an exclusion for a "cabin" in most municipal codes.  Minimum size requirements for a permitted structure will be the trigger.

That is my take.

mt

[youngins]

Mike-

Sounds like they are trying to get every penny they can from people.  

Good information to keep in mind.  Guess it all depends on how strict the local office is. A good resource may be looking at the land use code where those type of restrictions "should be" spelled out.

I know in my building county, a "dwelling" is defined as a structure containing a kitchen, bathroom and sleeping quarters. I have not seen anything in the land use code which stipulates an ancillary building can only be built when a permit exists for a main dwelling. Something to scrutinize, though.

[builderboy]

In my area "accessory building" permit exemption applies for less than 215 sf AND not habitable in any way. Start building in bunks, kitchenette etc and your toast. It's meant for the yard shed - mower, shovel, rake .... You have to have a "house" permit in place to build the shed.

[glenn-k]

Mike-

Sounds like they are trying to get every penny they can from people.  

I think he's got it.  

Number one thing is to get you on the tax rolls.  Even if you don't go ahead and build, the tax assessor will check your permit to see if you did.  Before you can start, you pay the fees (taxes) and school fees (taxes)  not to mention the annual (taxes).  BTW Tax assessors cannot legally enter your land for any reason without your permission.  They are not even legal to get a warrant to enter- not even under todays color of law, that most of us have agreed to accept as law.

The building inspector is allowed to get a warrant under very strict conditions.

The above is just information - I'm not asking you to change your thinking and start a fight with the local officials.  I think they have their place in the contracting world.  Not the owner builder world.  Many people are not as industrious as you, and may need the protection from unscrupulous contractors - of which there are a fair amount.  I'd say there are more pretty fair and good ones though.

Safety is maximum number 2 if not lower.  Power over most of the people (rather than realizing they are a public servant) is another major driving force.  IE - Hey man, I can put a red tag on your property.  People who don't want their neighbors to have anything or to put something in their way even though they own the land are another major driving force.  They'll rat you out.  Be best friends with neighbors if possible.  Barbecues and helping each other do wonders.

[outhouse]

I'm familiar with accessory structure, temporary structure, campground. It's not the building it's self that I'm as curious about; it's more about general 'periferal' requirements. In other words, how much plumbing and electrical does a residential home need to have according to UBC or IBC ? How much a cabin ? In the following link, I find interest in Campgrounds' 30 days annually note, and the Dwellings' definition as excluding tents and cabins. If it's just an annual permit, it might be worth the reward. Subdivide your property into 12 lots and put a cabin on each one-that's whart a pirate mite doo in a jamm-arr I have read the UBC Residential some. If someone knows more I appreciate it.  http://co.humboldt.ca.us/planning/zoning/Zoning/ch4secCD.htm

[benevolance]

Glenn

The ratting you out from the neighbors in my humble opinion is merely people that are upset because they bought land at the coast...They are thinking investment...and they get super pissed when they see the neighbor building some rinky dinky little shed...

I like cabins and little houses and most people here do too...But some people see someone building something other than a mansion next to them and they percieve it as a possible cause for them not to get rich off their property when they decide to sell...

Nobody wants to live next to the smallest house on the street...all the sub divisions that have been built for the last 2 decades have restrictions that guarantee the property value for residents....That thinking stays with mindless people that cannot think for themselves....And so they get bylaws passed for the middle of nowhere....And when you and I want to build a cabin in the woods and one of our neighbors finds out it is like living next to the serial rapist....It is seen as nothing but a cause to deflate the value of  their property.

Yes pettiness and jealousy play a part in people calling the county on you....Some people are just a holes by nature....

But mostly it is the thinking of entitlement....this sense that other people are going to do what they want to help them make money and to increase the value of their land....

when I was in college my landlord and his brother owned about 50 houses that they rented downtown and there were 2 universities in the area and students walked to classes....They did well.

They wanted to level a block of older run down houses they owned to build a state of the art apartment complex exactly half way bewtween the universities....

All the well to do's blocked their attempts to get the building permits...they did not want more traffic on their sidestreets as they saw it as hurting property values in what was exclusive real estate in the heart of the old part of the city....

So after a few years of begging and fighting for a permit they stopped doing maintenance on the houses and started painting them purple with pink polka dits and rainbow stripes on them....With graffitti on them curse words penis drawings...etc....

They looked like Hell.....And the people around the houses went beserk....I mean they totally lost their minds...They threatened to paint the houses themselves....

The community was trying to effectively tell the brothers what they were going to do with their properties....How they were going to use them paint them....etc....

Funny how after letting the places get run down and the creative art work they got permission to tear them down and the land was re-zoned for the apartment

But for it to happen the apartment had to be the lesser of evils...It had to be something that would bring property values back up after the nasty looking houses made the place look like a slum

[Amanda_931]

Getting the neighborhood to cooperate is a big deal.  

The current Mayor of Salt Lake City seems to be doing that there--first greening the city, then offering programs to work with business and residents to green--and save money on--their places.

[hunter63]

Finding out what you have to deal with when planning and building most anything is probably he most important part of any project.

Interesting enough, some/lot of, codes even dictate min sq footage.

Had a "covenant" on the property I purchased, imposed by the seller;
No mobil homes, min 800 sq ft, must be enclosed with one year, etc.
Local power company wouldn't run elect service till an approved building permit, approved septic installed (was perked), and inspected, approved drive way, to code, etc etc.

Looked pretty dismal until I found out "How it's really done the Locals"

Got a seasonal hook up from the power company, parked a camper (NOT a mobil home), can be moved in 15 min, had a "portable shed" on skids, built by the local high school, and delivered, put in a "stub road, farm field access" and the rest is history.

Paid for the property, put an 16' X 40' 585 sq ft (with out counting lofts) Amish built log cabin on the property, also delivered, but since it was trucked in is considered a mobil home, so local codes don't apply.\
So happy ending, but not with out a lot of wheeling a dealing, hair pulling etc along the way.
Good luck.

[Woodsrule]

Just to weigh in on Benevolence's post: The local building inspector didn't like the fact that a man's apartment building needed paint, so he ordered him to paint it.  When the #!@#!! inspector was told that there was no money in the budget this year for paint, he slapped the hapless guy with an order to paint, or to face ordinance charges.  Never one to be ordered to do anything, this man found a paint supplier willing to give him twenty five gallons of pure black paint for free.  Yep, you guessed it- he painted the entire building, windows and all, pure black.  Sure made the busybodies squawk! They now leave people alone when they are told there is no money in the budget for paint.  Tony

[glenn-k]

I had a friend the county told to put a fence around his yard as he had a lot of old trucks and junk cars.  He put up a fence made entirely of cables and posts  with  car hoods tied along the cables.  

Nice.

[siggers]

Great site btw, read many informative and interesting things on here. Thought Id share my dealings with the district and busy body types whos hobby is ratting on a poor guy trying to make the move from the big city to the country. I bought a property last summer, next door there was a frenchman who was camping on his land building a cord wood home. He's a straigh french rural and doesnt give a beep! And myself who also wants to lead a simpler life. Build a 20 x 24 and kick back.

I think in my time on the property I was probly visited by over a half dozen different officials, on probly a good 15 or 16 times.
One neighbour even called the toilet police me!  Crys of "what are they doing down there?", there camping in the woods! "oh I never"  comon give me a break its rural B.C. I was acused of having huge burn piles, I let the fire marshal come down and look at my burn piles lol, and showed him my camp stove. But none the less they came back repetedly. I should get me one of those $5000 land use signs.

Permits for this permits for that I need a permit to take a dump in a bucket?, where is the freedom, I think it all started when I dug up the water main with a shovel over a day and a half, it was like 7 feet down in bed rock! and hooked up a standpipe. Oh boy were they pissed off, aparently no one had ever done it before. I pay over 600 bucks a year in tax for water, I think im intiltled to some drinking water. So the CID improvment district tried to get me to move the stanp pipe, for asthetic reasons? they must of woke me up a good 10 or 12 times to harass me. Trying to get me to do this or that. They ended up cutting off my water, handed me some sort of hand typed bylaw paper, and shut it off. Aparently im only alowed 90 days of temp use. I dont think i even got that.

This is just one or two of many experiences, not to mention my red flag haha for building 10ft wide shack, or the current battle with the district and above to re write the provincial sewerage act to allow for composting toilets. Thats a whole other story, I think though thats its a comprimise in the end, life is short I want to build my cottage, and live in peace, in order to do that most likly I will have to let some of principals go and give in to the big brother while hes watching.

[benevolance]

yes it pisses off the rich doctor (no offense to the good doctors) or lawyer whatever when you build a ugly to them little shack by yourself next to their dream resort....and they see you out there building things like an outhouse

They will do whatever they can to make life miserable...In Nova Scotia outhouses have been banned for nearly 20 years....

Luckily you can install your own septic....It will cause a riot...Just go ahead and do it....As long as it passes the perk test there is nothing that they can do to you...they come out with the uv dye flush it and go to your lawn with the uv lights...

Now getting a backhoe operator to help you is another story...One of my best friends is a 20 year septic installer...He told me what to do and how to do it...And warned me...If you mention my name I will beat the living sh*t out of you...*LOL*

They tell you what you have to do.....I say make a trip to the county office and get a copy of bylaws and ordinances....Often there is a loophole because something is not worded exactly as the inspector or neighbors thinks...

It is very satisfying when you get a copy of their rules and find a way around them....Pure bliss showing the rules to the inspector....and knowing there is nothing they can do to you short of re-writing the rules...

One bit of advice...If it comes to this type of situation...work fast...get help whatever it takes...Trust me when provoked they will hold emergency sessions to deal with you....hehe....

Sometimes I miss Canada....not that crap.... It is getting so bad they demand a permit in Nova Scotia for a baby barn that you buy at home depot...you know the 10x 10 prefab jobs....the inspector told me one time...If it is a building you need a permit

What a jerk....Put a feed dish in there and get a chicken....hehe....Agriculture for now is exempt from most of the ordinance and permit foolishness in nova Scotia.... My dad built his garage as a "Dog House" when the inspector said something about the 12 foot high ceilings...My dad said to him....I cannot hit my head when I feed the dog....

If you think a stop work order is coming work as fast as possible and try to get the stuff that is totally illegal done before the inspectors get out there....Not always buy usually once it is up and built you get left alone...

Like Glenn said get better signs and find out if you can legally keep the inspectors off your land.

[glenn-k]

Welcome to the forum, Siggers.  I don't know anything about Canadian law but I recommend studying up on it as much as you can.

Fights are fun but I guess the main thing they want from you is complete power over your life for the moment they want it and whatever tax they can get out of you.  Unfortunately it sounds like you have a bunch of their little Nazi spies keeping an eye on you for them too.

Please keep us posted.

[builderboy]

Benevolence, not sure where you are in Nova Scotia but several municipalities (I know Lunenburg & Cumberland counties) have building permit exemptions for "accessory buildings" under 20 sq meters (about 215 sq ft). That would include the 10x10 prefab baby barn. The shed is intended to be a shed (you know - lawn mower, shovels etc.) NOT a bunkhouse or anything liveable in any way. Also, there must be a residence on the property (or at least a permit to build one).

[benevolance]

builderboy

I was talking Halifax and Hants county...they are the 2 counties I have built in....So I know not all of but a lot of the foolishness they throw at you in those 2 places.

It is interesting that you need a residence on the property to build a tool shed...This is a problem I had in Halifax county one time...I started to build a garage first....They freaked out....I wanted to build a place to work on the house to cut the lumber make trim...Go get warm when it was cold...etc....

We came up with a solution on a friends place...He incorporated a 4 car garage into the building plans for the side of the house..

Built the garage part first....And then just changed the building plans and the garage was separate from the house....Sort of a end around.....But that is what you need to do with them sometimes....Take what little they give you and use it against them.

Another instant stop work order in that part of the province is just build a basement and live there until you have the money to build the rest of the house....WOW... it is like you are the brother of Osama Bin Laden....Seriously....

A bunch of people have had plans approved for the house and built the basement first...Temporary power....But if the house does not get built on the basement they immediately pull the power and then they threaten to condemn the place as there is no occupancy permit...

speaking of occupancy permit...Never heard of anything so foolish in all my life....I need permission to live on the land that I own and pay taxes on....Oh MY God.....I guess that instance is why guns were created....When someone comes onto your land and tells you need to ask permission to live on your land...That is the time to start shooting....

[outhouse]

It sounds like I brought up a not so fun subject.  I guess part of my motive was to preserve what simplicity we might still have left in the codes. It seems like not alot of county codes or codes people want to be open about what can still be done and is written into the law. For example, I was looking at some rural property in a county where the initial statement for rural residential  land use said that it could be used for either single family dwelling or hobby farm, literally. But when I asked someone to make sure, they kind of said they guessed I could put horses on it maybe, but I couldn't do anything to it. Really though, the code said I could. Being that the primary use of the land would then be a hobby farm and not single family residential, any accessory structure, retaining wall, or fence would then be relative to the that and not require a septic tank or anything else stuck in the development code. This was in Oregon where the 'permits protect' website lists instances that a person doesn't need a permit. To sum this up, I think we all have to do things in life that we don't want to, and as ridiculous or nasty as it might seem, we don't do the public or next generation a lot of good just complaining about it. Then again, I kind of think art and expression is kind of another thing. I just mean, if we expect the sane and just law, that is out there, to take a new idea seriously, then we have to respect and appreciate what little we can about the stuff that really does want for progress to increase freedom, sustainability, and quality. My apollogies if this doesn't conclude real well. On another note, I've noticed that my thoughts on cabin weren't too far off where it isn't a dwelling, but is a building and structure. But, I did not read closely and mixed up campground with camping party. No hard feelings anyone. I know we all have to get by somehow. Take care.

[glenn-k]

No need to rush off Outhouse.  

Seems we got more there than the answer to your original question.  Here they allow RV storage garages and some abuse that a bit and get away with it.  Other than that, it is 10 x 12 with no electric or plumbing if you go by code and ask permission.

What I mean by that is that there are a lot here in the mountains who don't ask permission.  They mostly chase down people who get their neighbors ticked off.