The American Nightmare

[dug]

The willingness to accept all credible accounts supporting one side of an issue while ignoring all credible accounts that challenge it is what I find distressing. It defies logic.

[Pox Eclipse]

The accounts positing a government conspiracy are founded of a tissue of suppositions that don't even rise to the level of circumstantial evidence.  They begin with a conclusion, that the government is trying to kill us, and string together reams of what-ifs and call it proof.   Logic has nothing to do with it.

[glenn kangiser]

Not trying to kill us, Pox.

Manufacturing consent to attack semi-defenseless oil rich countries and using the deception as a tool for approval to transfer billions of tax dollars over to the private sector - the military industrial complex is in control.

By keeping the sheeple clueless and scared there is no resistance to anything they might want to do anywhere they might want to do it.


The perpetrators thought the sacrifice of any innocent citizens who became collateral damage was inconsequential in their quest to have the "New Pearl Harbor" as prescribed by the PNAC.  

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Project_for_the_New_American_Century

According to the PNAC report, "The American peace has proven itself peaceful, stable, and durable. Yet no moment in international politics can be frozen in time: even a global Pax Americana  will not preserve itself." To preserve this "American peace" through the 21st century, the PNAC report concludes that the global order "must have a secure foundation on unquestioned U.S. military preeminence." The report struck a prescient note when it observed that "the process of transformation is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event--like a new Pearl Harbor."

Pox, the event was assisted or allowed to happen and the evidence points to an inside job.  Not the other way around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc7i0wCFf8g  GHWB NWO

It is obvious that there is no change between Obama and the Bush Cabal..... Business continues as usual no matter which side is in power.

[dug]

The accounts positing a government conspiracy are founded of a tissue of suppositions that don't even rise to the level of circumstantial evidence.  They begin with a conclusion, that the government is trying to kill us, and string together reams of what-ifs and call it proof.   Logic has nothing to do with it.

It may have developed into a conclusion, but that is not how it began. It began with reasonable people  who questioned a lot of things that seemed hard to swallow.

Logic has much to do with it, as does emotion which often interferes with ones ability to see things as they are.

[Pox Eclipse]

Not trying to kill us, Pox.

Manufacturing consent to attack semi-defenseless oil rich countries and using the deception as a tool for approval to transfer billions of tax dollars over to the private sector - the military industrial complex is in control.

Uh huh.  And which countries were they trying to foment war with by creating the illusion that 18 Saudis and 1 UAR national flew four planes into US targets?  Did we subsequently attack Saudi Arabia or the UAR?  You would think the cover story would include hijackers that were from the countries you wanted to go to war with, wouldn't you?  This conspiracy doesn't stand up to even the slightest investigation.

[glenn kangiser]

To the contrary.  They were smart enough to manufacture consent for  a war against a concept.  The war on "Terror".  They left themselves free to go after any country anywhere simply by starting and reinforcing rumors demonizing any country or group of people in a country that they wanted to.  Yell terrorist loud enough and the sheeple approve or at least will go along for the ride.

The Taliban were wanting too much money for the proposed Unocal pipeline - talks to negotiate it had failed and the oil people said they needed a stable government there to deal with.  First order of the day there.

The Iraq attacks and occupation had long been planned before 9/11.  All that was needed was the vehicle - the war on terror.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdlUi8-9TMU

We have become the worlds greatest terrorist organization dealing undeserved death thoughout the world and wasting the lives of our servicemen for big business, wealth for the elite, greed and power.

[Windpower]

Well said, Glenn !

[IronRanger]

Pox Eclipse (or anyone else who has a similar thought pattern),

Do you accept the fact that our government/military has committed false flag attacks against us in the past?

[MountainDon]

Depends what you mean by "attacks against us".   Do you have specific examples, cases?

[muldoon]

there has certainly been plans for it.

Operation Northwoods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods

Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a false-flag operation plan that originated within the United States government in 1962. The plan called for Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) or other operatives to commit genuine acts of terrorism in U.S. cities and elsewhere. These acts of terrorism were to be blamed on Cuba in order to create public support for a war against that nation, which had recently become communist under Fidel Castro. One part of the Operation Northwoods plan was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington."

Operation Northwoods included proposals for hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. The plan stated:

    "The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere."

Several other proposals were included within the Operation Northwoods plan, including real or simulated actions against various U.S. military and civilian targets. The plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project anti-communist initiative, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted and the proposals included in the plan were never executed.

Aside from that, the concept itself is not very novel. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_flag

In the 1931 Mukden incident, Japanese officers fabricated a pretext for annexing Manchuria by blowing up a section of railway. Six years later they falsely claimed the kidnapping of one of their soldiers in the Marco Polo Bridge Incident as an excuse to invade China proper.

In the Gleiwitz incident in August 1939, Reinhard Heydrich made use of fabricated evidence of a Polish attack against Germany to mobilize German public opinion and to fabricate a false justification for a war with Poland. This, along with other false flag operations in Operation Himmler, would be used to mobilize support from the German population for the start of World War II in Europe.

On November 26, 1939, the Soviet Union shelled the Russian village of Mainila near the Finnish border. The Soviet Union attacked Finland four days afterwards, claiming the shelling to have been a Finnish military action. Russia has agreed that the attack was initiated by the Soviets.[6] Also, the nearest Finnish artillery pieces were well out of range of Mainila.[7]

In 1953, the U.S. and British-orchestrated Operation Ajax used "false-flag" and propaganda operations against the formerly democratically elected leader of Iran, Mohammed Mosaddeq. Information regarding the CIA-sponsored coup d'etat has been largely declassified and is available in the CIA archives.[8]

In 1954, the Military Intelligence Directorate of Israel launched a series of bombings against targets in Cairo which had British and American financial interests, in the hopes of alienating the U.S. and Britain from Egypt.[9] Codenamed Operation Suzannah, it was later dubbed the Lavon Affair, after Israeli Defense Minister Pinchas Lavon. Lavon and Israeli Military Intelligence head Binyamin Gibli had planned and carried out the operation in secret, and without telling Prime Minister Moshe Sharett in advance. Lavon and Gibli both lost their jobs as a result. Israel (where it is known as "The Unfortunate Affair") finally admitted responsibility in 2005.[10]

Former GRU officer Aleksey Galkin,[11] former FSB officer Alexander Litvinenko[12] and others have stated that the 1999 Russian apartment bombings that precipitated the Second Chechen War were false flag operations perpetrated by the FSB. Galkin has since recanted his accusation, which was made while prisoner of Chechen rebels.[citation needed]

There is nothing new under the sun.  The system works as designed.  While people are seeing the system that surrounds them, they should also accept that the same system has always been present. 

Don - you ask for specific examples, does the war on drugs count?
I personally acknowledge the sinking of the lucitania as a false flag. 
I dont know so much about the others. 

Aside from that, take a look at this (obviously biased) list.  http://911review.com/articles/anon/false_flag_perations.html

[Windpower]

Gulf of Tonkin

Lavon affair

SS Liberty

Sinking of the Maine

[MountainDon]

Tonkin: Aug 2 happened, Aug 4 was false and the resulting act of congress was wrong

Lavon: wasn't that an act of Israel?

Liberty: No.

The Maine: Many now think it was a result of spontaneous combustion in one of the coal holds; possibly a bomb but nothing can be said for sure.

[glenn kangiser]

I don't understand the no on the liberty, Don - you mean it was not a false flag?  Or that Israel did it and government was not involved?

Here are some of the later facts on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVR6_7BNyEI

Positively done by Israeli's with our knowledge.  Johnson ordered that it be allowed to happen and recalled the support planes.

It was another covert buddy deal similar to the WTC/9-11

[Windpower]

"Lavon: wasn't that an act of Israel?"


Yes it was

made to look like an Arab terrorist event

[MountainDon]

"Lavon: wasn't that an act of Israel?"

Yes it was

made to look like an Arab terrorist event

No argument on that. Israeli, not USA. Not everything that Israel does has an American connection. My response was made with specific reference to the queation that was posed... "Do you accept the fact that our government/military has committed false flag attacks against us in the past?"

[MountainDon]

There was no false flag nonsense involved with the Lusitania.

Kapitänleutnant Walther Schwieger fired a single torpedo from his U-20 and it hit the Lusitania. There was a subsequent explosion that was originally thought to be one or two additional torpedos. However, Schweiger's diary indicates he fired one. It is argued that either munitions on board the Lusitania or possibly a coal dust explosion. In 2008 divers found millions of Remington .303 ammunition in the wreck as proof that munitions were on board. Munitions were not supposed to be on board, or rather I think it was that it was illegal for US citizens to be on a ship carrying munitions. I may have that part mixed up. Anyhow the second explosion is was caused the ship to sink rapidly. The event did sowthe seeds of American animosity towards Germany. It still took almost two years for the USA to declare war though.

[glenn kangiser]

Except as I recall it was specifically set up to get the Germans to blow it up.  The Germans in fact took out ads in the US warning civilians not to get on the Lusitania because they would down it.

False flag in that we knew what would happen and set it up to happen.

The Lusitania: A classic example of war profiteering

What are the top reasons for war? At first thought, imperial governments or self-defense may come to mind. The truth is most wars are ultimately about money, oil, and power. To prevent and end war, peacemakers need to understand the money system that war-profiteers use to make a "killing."

The same "banksters" or money trust that designed the Federal Reserve have for over two centuries profited from war. Senator Louis McFadden (1876-1936) documented direct involvement in wars in the 19th century. The list of 20th century involvement in promoting wars is long and includes the Lusitania operation in World War I, funding both Germany and England during WW II, helping to create the conditions for the Korean War in 1953 (Korea was intentionally divided in 1945), and beating the drums for war in Vietnam just to name a few. For dozens of current examples on how war debt is driven up by corporations such as Halliburton, see the documentary Iraq for Sale.

Should it be a surprise to anyone that international bankers scheme to profit from wars?

The cycle of debt often starts with selling weapons. Governments go in debt to buy weapons. The weapons manufacturers make money on the sale and the bankers profit from interest on the weapons-generated debt. The weapon sales accelerate if the weapons buyer, usually a government, is faced with a perceived or real threat. The country that buys the most weapons is the U.S. (total weapons purchases exceed the combined sum of all other nations). Not surprisingly, government officials, paid experts (often former government officials), and corporate owned media promote calls for war as agents of this agenda to drive up U.S. debt.

Bankers profit from wars

President George Washington and other founders of our country had first-hand experience with how banking families in Europe bankrolled military actions for their personal gain. In his farewell address on September 17, 1796 George Washington warned Americans to be on guard against alliances with Europe. The history of how bankers have started and continued wars is painfully long. We need only look at past wars, to see a trail of blood money. In the Middle Ages the Knights Templars, most known as a military arm for expanding Christianity, performed the role as a private central bank for the Crusades. Relatively few Knights Templars were soldiers and most members worked in their banking business.

The Knights Templars and other financiers of war are not representative of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, or Hinduism. The financiers of war are international and value money more than human life. The Rothschild banking dynasty is highlighted in this article because they became the leading banking force as a result of Wellington's war with Napolean, have profited from numerous conflicts, and led the creation of the Federal Reserve.1 Their involvement in World War I is a classic example of war profiteering.

How World War I started

As with most wars, World War I started many years before the first shot was fired. In 1870, the Franco-Prussian War resulted in France's defeat by Germany. After the war, the triple alliance was formed consisting of Germany, Austro-Hungary and Italy. Another factor was the policy of Weltpolitic or the global imperial policy of Kaiser Wilhelm the Second. The Moroccan crisis of 1905 to 1911 also was a factor leading to World War I. There were additional wars that involved Serbia and led to increased tension with Austria.

On June 28, 1914, the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, was assassinated in Sarajevo. The Black Hand Serbian secret society, with connections to powerful English and French intelligence, took credit. World War I had begun. France, England and Austria took on the war debt. While many paid the price with at least 20 million killed, war profiteers made a financial killing.

Historians still debate the causes of World War I. This is to be expected, as the perspective of the victor is different than that of the vanquished. Furthermore, bankers seek to have their roles downplayed or outright dismissed. To distort the truth, governments and wealthy private interests have a vested interest in funding historians to promote a favorable version of history.

President Woodrow Wilson claimed the main cause of World War I was the wealthy had too much control over Germany, Russia and Austria. Lenin went on record that the banking merchants orchestrated the war.2 We now know that at least at this high level, both Wilson and Lenin were correct. Financial interests, cloaked in good intentions and nationalism, fueled World War I.

False flag operation Lusitania

How did the United States get pulled into World War I? Citizens of the U.S. were successfully fooled to enter the war in 1917 by a series of cleverly orchestrated efforts. President Woodrow Wilson was directly involved in the deceptions and formally sanctioned the U.S. participation in the war in a secret agreement with England on March 9, 1916. We know about this agreement today because the agreement was leaked and confirmed by Sir Edward Grey, Ambassador Walter Hines Page, C. Hartley Grattan, and Colonel Edward Mandell House.

The focus of this article is on the centerpiece of the pro-war propaganda which preceded the 1916 secret agreement and involved sinking a passenger ship named the Lusitania.

Winston Churchill and Woodrow Wilson, in an operation financed by the major banking houses, arranged for the shipment of weapons on the Lusitania in May of 1915. The Lusitania luxury ocean liner was owned by the Cunard Steamship Line Shipping Company and officially part of the British auxiliary navy. The ship's owners were paid £218,000 a year (£150,000 for reserve military service and £68,000 to carry Royal mail). As an auxiliary naval ship, the Lusitania was under orders from the British Admiralty to ram any German ship seeking to inspect her cargo. In 1915, it was against U.S. law to put weapons on a passenger ship traveling to England or Germany.

Three German spies attempted to confirm that the 90 tons of unrefrigerated butter destined for a British naval base were weapons and ammunition.3  The spies were detained on the ship. The weapons loaded on the Lusitania were seen by the German dock workers and reported to the German embassy. To warn Americans about the weapons shipment, the Imperial German Embassy attempted to place an advertisement in 50 East Coast newspapers. The ads were printed with a date of April 22, 1915, but the US State Department blocked all the ads except one. George Viereck, the man who placed the ads for the embassy, protested to the State Department on April 26 that the ads were blocked. Viereck met with Secretary of State William Jennings Bryan and produced copies of the Lusitania's supplementary manifests. Bryan, impressed by the evidence that the Lusitania had carried weapons, cleared publication of the warning. Someone higher than the Secretary of State, likely Colonel House and President Wilson, overruled Bryan. Nonetheless one ad slipped past the State Department censorship. The single that slipped past the government censors appeared in the Des Moines Register (and is shown on the left).

The warning read: "NOTICE! Travellers intending to embark on the Atlantic voyage are reminded that a state of war exists between Germany and her allies and Great Britain and her allies; that the zone of war includes the waters adjacent to the British Isles; that, in accordance with formal notice given by the Imperial German Government, vessels flying the flag of Great Britain, or any of her allies, are liable to destruction in those waters and that travellers sailing in the war zone on ships of Great Britain or her allies do so at their own risk. IMPERIAL GERMAN EMBASSY WASHINGTON, D.C., APRIL 22, 1915."

More where that came from

http://www.teachpeace.com/teachpeacemoment9.htm

Once again - while not totally done by us, our government assisted for greed and monetary interests.  Once again the American people are tricked for fun, profit, and power.  Not totally our doings but our government chose to participate rather than stop it.... then the blood began to flow...

[glenn kangiser]

Another interesting tidbit from the above article

The 1915 Lusitania leads to war being declared in 1917

Berlin announced on January 31, 1917 that its submarines would sink all ships aiding Britain. The Berlin announcement, combined with the previous Lusitania sinking, was still not enough for America to enter the war. The British Intelligence service manufactured another bombshell in the form of a telegram from German Foreign Minister Arthur Zimmerman to the German Minister to Mexico. The telegram, presented to Woodrow Wilson on February 24, 1917, offered Mexico money to attack the U.S. The numerous British propaganda campaigns ultimately proved successful and on April 6, 1917 the U.S. did declare war on Germany. This technique was used as recently as 2002, when a British intelligence report20 helped fool Americans that Iraq had weapons of Mass Destruction.

[Pox Eclipse]

Whether 'false flag' actions happened in the past has no bearing on the whether 9/11 was a government plot.  Your standards of evidence are laughable, it all boils down to "It Coulda Happened!".

[glenn kangiser]

It shows a pattern of deceit.  I always consider past actions when deciding who to trust in a long term relationship. 

Looks like it would be a good idea if others looked at that too.  Maybe they would not be fooled as easily.

[Grimjack]

Whether 'false flag' actions happened in the past has no bearing on the whether 9/11 was a government plot.  Your standards of evidence are laughable, it all boils down to "It Coulda Happened!".

So you agree that false flag operations have been conducted by the United States and its allies in the past? If so would you agree that past actions can be an indicator of future behavior, and if that is the case then there is at least the possibility that the United States either had prior knowledge of the attacks on 9/11 or at the worst facilitated them?

I'll be the first to admit that I do not know what happened on 9/11. However I do know that the government's official story of the events is not what happened. The official 9/11 report doesn't even mention the building 7 collapse.

Much like the questions surrounding Obama's citizenship or whether the average citizen is required to pay income taxes there are enough holes in the stories to warrant looking into it. On any of these subjects if the questions being asked were actually being answered by the government I'd be happy! But it appears that the government either classifies the information for no reason, refuses to answer, or jails the questioners I'll continue to be highly skeptical...thank you very much!

[MountainDon]

Patterns can be important, but when one moves from personal relations to corporate or government entities I believe there is a difference. First let me state that a certain amount of wariness and monitoring should always be exercised when dealing with corporations and governments.

However, the loss of trust created by a cheating spouse, for example, is not necessarily the same as a loss of trust created by a failure in a business or governmental relationship. The people who are directing the corporations and governments can be and are replaced. Sure, we don't know if the replacements are any more trustworthy so that's why we the people should be watching.

Maybe an example will help with clarity. Just because 8 people from the mayor of Bell, CA down have been arrested for fraudulent dealings within the city government there does not mean that all mayors and police chiefs are guilty of the same thing.

Or another local example, the department head of a city vehicle maintenance garage was caught buying parts with city purchase orders and selling them on Craigslist for personal profit. That doesn't automatically make any head of any other department guilty of anything.

[MountainDon]

What about false flag operations by non allies? Lots of those too. Not to say that it's okay to engage in that behavior just because somebody else did it too. I think we can all agree that the world would be a better place if such things were not to ever happen. But we have a world full of people with flaws. 

[dug]

Insert Quote
Whether 'false flag' actions happened in the past has no bearing on the whether 9/11 was a government plot.

Certainly not evidence, but it demonstrates historical precedence.

Your standards of evidence are laughable

In this thread alone you have been provided with reams of valid information relating to the events of 911. Many of the contributors are physicists, architects, metallurgists, military and commercial pilots, military commanders, governments officials, etc. Several are among the leaders in their field. Many pieces of evidence, supported by facts that challenge the official report have been revealed, yet they are ignored by our government (and you) who refuse to even acknowledge them.

"It Coulda Happened!".

That's what I think when I hear the official line.

Some Muslims with box knives hijack 4 commercial flights. Some of their flight instructors state they were very poor pilots, barely Qualified to fly a small lane, yet they perform maneuvers that jet fighters and career pilots say were barely within the limits of the aircraft in question (some say not at all) and that an experienced ace pilot would be hard pressed to pull off. 4 of the hijackers are confirmed alive and well, ignored and unexplained by the government. The plane that failed on it's alleged mission created nothing but a hole in the ground that displayed nothing resembling a commercial airliner crash (no historical precedence). The towers come down at near free fall speed into their own footprint (no historical precedence). Building 7 does the same, though nothing hit it. Almost zero wreckage found from the crash into the pentagon. Full fledged war on terror in less than a month, with vows from president Bush to hunt down Bin Laden and make him answer for these acts of terror. Bin Laden is never found, and soon forgotten. Then Iraq, with their weapons of mass destruction, which were never found, and also soon forgotten. The saga continues, as our government tells us, without a foreseeable ending.

Well, I guess it could of happened.

It is the official version that has no proof to back it, other than our government saying "that's the way it happened"

I would like to see some hard evidence and facts supporting the official story from the majority out there who support it.

[Pox Eclipse]

It is the official version that has no proof to back it, other than our government saying "that's the way it happened"

Only if you reject all the physical evidence, and testimony by experts.  If you approach every question with the presumption that everything the government says is a lie, then it can never be proven to your satisfaction.  I don't blindly swallow everything they put out, but I can evaluate information from many sources, and come to a rational conclusion that fits the preponderance of evidence.   Is it possible I am wrong? Of course.  But it is equally possible you are wrong.  No explanation accounts for all of the millions of details, but the perfect is not the enemy of the good, and rational people can be as sure as is humanly possible without being an eyewitness to all that transpired.  I refuse to be haunted by unknowable "what ifs?"  when the available evidence raises reasonable doubt that they actually occured.